1. The Rules have been updated regarding posting as a business on TGP. Thread with details here: Thread Here
    Dismiss Notice

What is your favorite guitar method on scales /fretboard.

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Tomo, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,624
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass
    I am just curious about these books. Please limited to toward from beginner to advance
    in all styles. No specific to only jazz. All around.

    1) What are they? Name. Publisher.

    2) When/Where did you buy?

    3) Did you feel that this book made you improve ?

    4) If yes to Q3).
    a) How long did it takes you feel your improvement?
    b) What did you like it about.
    c) Which part did you improve? (more specific if you could)

    Overall did you feel you can play more freely than before?
    ... over changes?

    Thank you for your input.

    Tomo
     
  2. Super Locrian

    Super Locrian Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Location:
    In muddy waters
    I learned those things in my previous life as a bass player... :AOK I remember working through a book written by Rick Laird, think it was called "Improvising Jazz Bass".

    My teacher used Carol Kaye's books frequently, though I think these were more focused on grooves and bass lines, rather than scales/melodic stuff.

    At one point I had Slonimsky's "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" lying around. I'm sure it did a lot more for Coltrane than for me... :D

    Anyway, most scale books for guitar seem to be content with just listing out scale diagrams. What I'd like to see, is books that focus on the application of scales, harmonically, in various contexts (improvisational as well as compositional). There seem to be an awful lot of dictionaries, but few guides on how to write a good story...
     
  3. gennation

    gennation Member

    Messages:
    6,686
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    1) Chord Chemistry - Ted Greene

    2) The first copy I bought was around 1978.
    3) This book improved my knowledge of a lot of things, chords obviously, but also it helped make sense of all scales I had written on fretboard on paper. This help my understanding from a foundation point that has helped me keep learning ever since. It really helped unlock the fretboard from a theory stand point.

    4) If yes to Q3).
    a) I'd say it took me about a month or so of banging away at the book before something REALLY clicked, but when they did...let's just just say it's been about 30 years since and i'm still nterested in these concepts, still use them, and I still refer back to that book 30 years later.

    b) I liked the simple approach to everything. I liked they way it really stressed chord movements, common applicable concepts, voicings, etc...but I think it pointed out to me that the chords are the "functions" of the scales. By knowing the chords of a song I can pick out Keys, substitutions, all the scales that build those chords, etc, etc...

    Also, it was more playing than reading. You could 'hear' what little writing you had to read.

    It did ALL of this in a very simple manner too.

    You can get it at amazon.com for about $10, it's a MUST!

    Great book.
     
  4. Donster

    Donster Member

    Messages:
    100
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Good endorsement!

    Just ordered mine this past Monday...:)
     
  5. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,624
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass
    Thanks for your input. Just like... I use more drum books than guitars
    for time. Great point. I agree that it's important for people to be able
    to learm "idea" and apply that idea into something.

    That's why I asked you. How long did it take you?
    really feel you are improved? Which part?

    Thank you for your time.

    Tomo
     
  6. reganjeremy

    reganjeremy Member

    Messages:
    367
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2006
    1) guitar grimoire, not sure of the publisher... and "speed mechanics for lead guitar" by troy stetina.

    2) bought the grimoire book about 8 years ago to work on scale patterns and I liked the way they presented the theory, combining the scale modes with which chords work in a particular key. The speed mechanics book I bought online and I thought that it would help me make my playing cleaner and faster.

    3) Did you feel that this book made you improve ? Yes, I feel that both books did help me improve in some way with my playing. They both have their downsides though. The grimoire book has a truly daunting number of scales and their modes, howee sI think that it is only useful for a few of the scales and the rest is very repetitive. The book could have been condensed and then more time spend talking about the interrelationship between the scales, or some other more "glue" material to make it easier to digest.

    The speed mechanics book made my playing improve dramatically because it forced me to recognize the hinderances in my playing (mostly the elevated left-hand pinkie that was slowing me down). Also, the nature of this book forces you to get more familiar with your metronome and the CD to accompany it gives a good measure of your pace because many exercises are played in 3 tempos -- slow, fast, stupid fast.

    a) How long did it takes you feel your improvement?

    I improved the most from the grimoire only after years of learning a few scales very well -- the major scale patterns, minor pentatonic, and basic harmonic/melodic minor. the speed mechanics book it took about 2 months before I really felt that it was helping me. After that point there was a more noticeable change every time i practiced those exercises.

    b) What did you like it about.
    c) Which part did you improve? (more specific if you could)

    I like these books for their similarity in approach -- learn the modes of the scales well, tie it into chords, and then learn to break your "stuck" muscle memory into new patterns by learning new similar but modified patterns.

    The emphasis in both books is more on "memorized patterns" than theory, but for me that is OK because I learned the theory first by playing saxophone for a long time. Using each book as a tool to practice things that I can feel are wrong with my playing has proven to be the most effective. It's always good to have something really hard also to practice so that you can break it down into smaller pieces. I like having these books around to try if I get stuck with something -- they always give me some new way to express myself with playing just because there is SO MUCH material!! Personally I like having that, and supplementing it with internet knowledge and the occasional guitar mag to give me a few things that other players are working on.
     
  7. Kappy

    Kappy Member

    Messages:
    14,044
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Location:
    West Village, NYC
    GIT Single String Technique Unit 1
    Dan Gilbert ;)

    In Hollywood CA in 1987. It cost about $2700. ;) (There were a few other things thrown in with it).

    Yes, it taught me the C-A-G-E-D patterns for the major scale, the mel. min. scale, the harm. min. scale, and the pentatonics, as well as a bunch of arpeggios from triads to 7th chord arps.

    A few months

    CAGED patterns seem a simple way to put chord tones and scales together.

    I learned my way around the fingerboard more than I had known before...mostly in position, but also somewhat in longer patterns along the fingerboard.

    Part II (now):

    John McLaughlin - This is How I Do It.

    AbstractLogix.com in 2006

    Yes in that I learned a cool rhythmic approach to playing scales and patterns. It also reminded me to learn playing 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths better.

    Still working on it some, but again a couple to a few months of consistent focus/work.

    The rhythmic approach made me feel like I can have more control over single note lines...and that my lines will make better rhythmic sense (and cooler polyrhythmic feel).

    Covered above.

    Thanks!

    Tomo, what are you working on with this thread?
     
  8. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,624
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass

    Thank you so much for your detail comments. I almost had a chance to study with Ted. We lost someone very special.

    I agree with you. Scales lays around the chord shapes and it's nice to have good relationship together.

    <<<< b) I liked the simple approach to everything. I liked they way it really stressed chord movements, common applicable concepts, voicings, etc...but I think it pointed out to me that the chords are the "functions" of the scales. >>>>

    I agree. Thank you so much for your time. I am still learning.

    PS, More Ted's book comments anyone??? Great book!


    Tomo
     
  9. Flyin' Brian

    Flyin' Brian Member

    Messages:
    29,268
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    Location:
    K7C 4K8
    The first chord book I found was Mel Bay Orchestral Chords, which was really for Freddie Green type comping. I just moved the notes from the 6th string to the first.

    I read an article about scales and the I IIm IIIm, IV etc idea of chords in diatonic scales, probably from Guitar Player or Downbeat or something like that. From that it became easy to spell chords by raising/lowering the various notes in the scale (b5, #9 etc.)

    Then I started arpeggiating chords and adding notes that sounded good in between

    I got the 3 notes per string scale idea from a Lee Ritenour video, and still practice playing scales by starting on the first, then second then third note of the scale etc. For instance starting a G pentatonic on the low E third fret, then starting it on the Bb on the low E 6th fret, then the C then the D etc. I practice that with all scales and it made the fingerboard one large entity instead of attached positions.

    The most influential idea was form Henry Johnson, a great jazz guy in Chicago. I took some lessons from him. We jammed one day and after I played a phrase he asked me to play it again. I did and he played a completely different set of changes. The another, then another. I realize he was going through modes although don't ask me to name them.

    He said to me "You have a good vocabulary, but remember that you can use a word in more than one kind of sentence".

    That one sentence changed how I look at and listened to imptovising and scales.
     
  10. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,624
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass



    Thank you so much for writing! I have that book too. As educator I like to taste all books.

    When you are soloing over changes, more than just blues changes, can you play
    your eyes closed or do you look at your fingers?

    How about if there is whole step key change, do you go up whole step using
    exact same fingering or do find other directions to do?

    For me this book has too many same shapes in different keys and a lot of pages!
    It's good to study many choices, around "CAGED" system is good and 3 notes per
    strings is good. but it's not enough just one for me. 3 notes... shows too much
    shapes and people could confused to say "I know dorian scale" just one position.

    You have played your sax before you started to play your guitar. That's great
    experience. I wish I had that! What kind of music do you play?

    Do you feel you can play your mode freely over just 123 strings or even just 23 set strings?

    <<<and then learn to break your "stuck" muscle memory into new patterns by
    learning new similar but modified patterns.>>>>

    More specific if you can? I really enjoying your detail comments. Hope we get similar
    review on same book like Ted's book too.

    Thank you so much for your time. Fine writing!

    I do practice 3 favorite tempos:
    Slow, very slow and stupidly slow!!! (for fast playing)

    Tomo
     
  11. reganjeremy

    reganjeremy Member

    Messages:
    367
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2006
    Hi Tomo,

    Sure thank you for your input, I appreciate your contrubutions greatly so I am glad to talk to you. For me when I play lead over changes, I can do it without looking for some of the songs we do in our band, but if I move too many positions away from the chords then I need to look some and also because I am worse at knowing the notes around the 12th fret where I end up playing lead lines. For example, if I am playing "will you still love me tomorrow" it is C G C F G and then I thnk over the solo it is that and maybe a part with the E Am G F G C ?

    This way I play arpeggios in the 1st through 3rd frets, then for the solo I am playing what sounds like the vocal part, I don't even honestly know what key I play mostly . I think I concentrate on C and Am.

    there are a lot of songs though where I can play a minor pentatonic and it fits PERFECTLY with the chord progression, brown-eyed girl and "danny's song" by loggins and messina there is a really obvious pentatonic progression. Even for those, I try to make the solos more interesting by adding in diminished 3rd and 5th, and stuff like that =). If I change position, then I can use different patterns relative to the new spot. That's why it's good if you can tell just by intervals where your relative melodic minor is at, at least that is what I find the most handy. Also the overlap between one and another pentatonic scale, the similarities between the 4th and 1st modes, 2nd and 5th modes is a great way to add some pepper.

    For learning scales on 1 or 2 strings only, you can just remember the 4-notes per string patterns, slide your pinky on the way up the scale and slide your index finger on the way back down. That seems to be an approach that works for me, but yes these are much tougher.

    in the case of the 3 notes per string pattern, you start to have these muscle memory runs that are counter-productive. If you are too used to playing in the dorian mode then those patterns stick out at you. If you try to use dorian pattern like


    --------------------------------------5-7-8
    -------------------------------5-7-8-------
    -------------------------4-5-7--------------
    ------------------4-5-7---------------------
    -----------3-5-7----------------------------
    ----3-5-7-----------------------------------

    if you tried to use the

    ---5-7-8---

    pattern over the phyrgian mode on the top E string in stead of

    ---5-7-9---

    you'll just sound confusing, not musical. I guess I'm not sure if that was a good explanation.

    I found that using your ideas about exploring triad inversions to be a good way to break up my view of scales from these one-string run patterns into interval-based patterns. I find myself slipping into playing minor thirds because of too much playing pentatonic scales when I try to figure out some of the triads.
     
  12. countandduke

    countandduke Member

    Messages:
    1,268
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    1) What are they? Name. Publisher.
    Hard to pick just one but I would say that almost ANY of the Jamey Aebersold cd's and books are awesome!! The Frank Gambale Technique books I and II are great too!!

    2) When/Where did you buy?
    Aebersold books are at www.jazzbooks.com I ordered the Frank Gambale books from the local music store.

    3) Did you feel that this book made you improve ?
    Aebersold has around 125 volumes which are basically backing tracks to almost every jazz tune ever written. You have drums, piano and bass and the piano and bass is panned so you can remove either and practice with just the other one. He also has super simple books and cd's where you play just major scales for a long time and then slowly start changing keys.

    Frank Gambale books are good in that he shows you which scales, intervals, etc... fit over which chords.

    4) If yes to Q3).
    a) How long did it takes you feel your improvement? Almost instantly....
    b) What did you like it about. Playing with "live" recorded musicians is THE best practice bar none.
    c) Which part did you improve? (more specific if you could) Key changes, what scales fit over certain chords, the ability to have almost limitless options when playing.....

    Overall did you feel you can play more freely than before? Absolutely on both accounts!!!
    ... over changes? The Aebersold books are designed to do just that. There are also incredibly good books to be found like the Jerry Coker books, Aebersold also has a fantastic dvd called "Anyone can Improvise...."

    Chris
     
  13. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,624
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass


    Hi Dave,

    Thank you so much. Your GIT education was great experience for you.
    My Beklee education was great too.

    Personally I like the CAGED ideas and a part of 3 notes thing (Not entire patterns),

    Glad you mentioned the single string approach. Anyone can just to startfrom nothing. There are many ideas that you can do by yourself
    as long as you know the right path.

    I think there are many choices to improve your playing and there are many things that it's possible to go wrong direction ... like bad habits.

    About the CAGED or 3 notes per string ideas... if you follow too much
    "SYSTEM" then you will become the result of method, but it is useful idea to follow. Octave connection... very important to see.

    I have "Tomo's triad lesson "thread. I am hoping to help more people who
    want to improve their skills of playing.

    I saw the ad of John McLaughlin one. Thanks for your report. Yes, intervals, sequencings are very important. My AYGP 2 will present,
    the CAGED, 3 notes per...., 2 strings set, single string approach...
    in all degrees. Just in case people need to practice in 2nd, 3rd, 4th,.5th, 6th, 7th, in CADGED, 3 notes per... all 2 strings set, 3 strings set,
    single string.. It takes time, but once you can control you don't have to
    do this again... just like "high school"....

    Rhythmic approach is another topic. Thanks though..

    Thank you so much for your time.

    I am just working to improve my teaching and try to understand people's experiences. I taught many students at Berklee in past 14 years... When people use their scales, or try to apply scales for improvisation. I really need to deeply understand each one's experiences. I noticed there are some patterns of problems regarding student's skills. If I don't know how to undo a bad habit or misconception.... I can't provide good application for their need. So basically I am still working on teaching ....

    My hopes are helping more people and serve better. That's all.

    Thanks for your valuable time and information.

    It's important to practice in time and neat.
    In position 3rd

    Tomo

    music tab In position 3rd[​IMG]
     
  14. gennation

    gennation Member

    Messages:
    6,686
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    I have to second that John Mclaughlin DVD set. I got it a few months back and the inmpact is beyond anything I've tried so far (and I own over 40 instructional DVD's).

    It's like a horn player taking a lesson from Miles Davis.

    Brilliant lessons John, thank you!
     
  15. countandduke

    countandduke Member

    Messages:
    1,268
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Yeah, the John McLaughlin dvd's are cool in fact I think his website even has the tabbed versions of his lessons.

    I really dig both Scott Henderson's videos as well as Joe Pass'. Beyond that I think Scott Henderson had some pretty interesting things to say about the guitar in that he recommends trying to look at the guitar as 6 individual pianos. The piano is all laid out in front of you and is MUCH easier to visualize scales etc.... He also recommended to play the songs in the Real Book knowing exactly what chord tone you are on. Start with one string and make sure you play a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 or 13 (including the correct sharp or flat if one is needed.....)

    I have just begun teaching again after a good hiatus and I am enjoying it immensely. Playing the guitar is actually one of the hardest things I have ever undertaken. Surfing is up there too......

    Chris
     
  16. mainsale

    mainsale Member

    Messages:
    1,699
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Location:
    Cape Cod Blues
    Books Good
    DVD's Better
     
  17. Jeeves

    Jeeves Member

    Messages:
    1,030
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Location:
    San Carlos, CA
    Tomo - I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Hal Galper's book 'Forward Motion'. Its not a guitar method book per se and therefore maybe not applicable to your specific inquiry but I use it and it continues to help me. The basic concept, though I'll fall short of explaining it properly, is that soloists should try to solo towards a chord instead of simply waiting for a chord change, playing a scale to fit that chord, then waiting for another chord change and then playing another scale etc etc, i.e. the way I play at times. He goes into detail on the strong beats of the measure and on which beats chord tones sounds best.

    After studying the book for a while I really realized how important the triads are in order to always know where 'home base' is. I really enjoy your DVD btw and will look forward to the next one...
     
  18. tWreCK

    tWreCK Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Tomo,

    I really appreciate the fact that you take the time to post here in the playing & technique section of TGP - i feel you have a genuine concern about your teaching methods and to help other guitar players improve any way they can (the Tomo triad lesson is one example).

    I wish there were a teacher like you where I live but there isn't unfortunately. My problem is that I feel I have the technique & "feel" when playing but my theory and vocabulary isn't there. I just don't know what to practice to get beyond this and more importantly how to practice (ie should I always use a metronome, should I use software or other tools to play against a backing track etc). I have a couple of scale & theory books (they probably aren't very good) but I fail to see how to apply this to my playing.

    Anyway, keep up the good work & looking foward to AYGP 2 and Tomo lessons right here on TGP :)

    Btw, did a search for the Mclaughlin dvd and the cheapest i found was $175!!! on Ebay - any cheaper sources?
     
  19. WhosYourPal

    WhosYourPal Member

    Messages:
    278
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Location:
    Northern, NJ
    1) What are they? Name. Publisher.
    Kirk Lorange's "Plane Talk" eBook / method helped me to see the relation between chords and available notes to use when soloing.

    2) When/Where did you buy?
    I think I bought this about 2 years into my journey of learning to play the guitar.

    3) Did you feel that this book made you improve ?

    I can't say that the book in and of itself helped to improve. However, it was instrumental in laying a solid foundation for understanding the relation of chords to single notes. I still refer back to the material when I slow things down and try to work something out around a chord progression.



    4) If yes to Q3).
    a) How long did it takes you feel your improvement?
    It took about 3 to 4 months of working with the material for it to become a cornerstone.


    b) What did you like it about.

    I like the simplicity of the concepts and the presentation format - it was a comic book!

    c) Which part did you improve? (more specific if you could)

    Like I said previously, it helped me to improve my understanding of the available notes to play over a chord progression.
     
  20. Nodin

    Nodin Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Somewhere between new Mexico and California and Ut
    bump for Chord Chemistry and Guitar Grimore Scales
     

Share This Page