What's lacking in today's modelers?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by ColdFrixion, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Gold Supporting Member

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    Yesterday Fractal Audio released a new Axe FX III Beta Firmware update where among other new stuff they added this:

    Improved Cabinet block room modeling by including floor reflection modeling. The intensity of the floor reflections can be adjusted with the new “Floor Reflections” parameter. Floor reflections play a large role in “amp in the room” sound. If the amp is on a carpet the floor reflections are minimal. If the amp is on a wood or other hard surface the floor reflections are significant.

    This is great as Fractal is exploring perfecting the amp in the room experience.
     
    Elric likes this.
  2. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    I'll be consistent with my previous posts.

    What's lacking is the completeness of the modeling equation.

    My standard for success isn't how it sounds on a recording or headphones...I'm looking for it "in the room".

    They have yet to solve the re-amplification part of the equation.
     
    Leonc and guitarobert like this.
  3. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    "Room IRs," are you referring to those that come in speaker IR packages? How long are the ones you're using?

    And room IRs aren't lacking, but authentic room sound is? Not sure what you mean.
     
  4. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    I use Ownhammer room IR's primarily. The product page lists the length between 200 and 500 ms.

    Quantity is independent of quality.
     
  5. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Oh. Yeah, way too short. Might as well use your room as @Watt McCo suggested. Even though it's treated it'll likely give a longer decay than 200~500 ms.
     
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  6. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    How is 500 ms too short?
     
  7. Bolt VanderHuge

    Bolt VanderHuge Member

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    Until modelers have the ability to emulate the effect of the sound waves reflecting off my saw blade codpiece, they are useless to me.
     
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  8. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    The kind of lively room that would be desirable for recording would have a decay of longer than 500 ms (at least that's my understanding).

    So with 500 ms room IRs, you're either getting the sound of crappy dead rooms, or an inaccurate crappy representation of good rooms.
     
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  9. Benz2112

    Benz2112 Supporting Member

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    It sounds like OP's hang up is that modeler presets need more reverb. I think IR's are just a giant rabbit hole that I am not super interested in. This is why I like the Powercab, it sounds more "real" to me. But there is the "thud", the sag, the "oomph" of a tube amp that is really hard to replicate. I have grown accustomed to hearing my guitar sound like a recording of a guitar, which kind of gives me a good frame of reference for what I am doing.
     
  10. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    According to Ownhammer, "The 500ms Wav files exhibit the full, uninhibited decay tail. They contain all of the reflective information of sound moving around inside the cabinet, and inside the room." Whereas the 200ms IR's have had the decay tail truncated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  11. Radius

    Radius Supporting Member

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    Man, Just listen to this thin screechy mess...

     
  12. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    No.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  13. Tmidiman

    Tmidiman Member

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    All modelers should have at least some parallel routing. We need more amp models, not fewer. I noticed some models and their associated cabs didn’t make the next generation. We also need models of the Lab Series L5 amp. Is it that hard to model?

    If can’t have multiple instances of an effect the unit is either old or dead. Units should be able to load at least 4 of its most processing heavy sound blocks.
     
  14. rockon1

    rockon1 Member

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  15. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Yeah, it would seem they're recording in a dead room then. I'd wager you wouldn't play in that room thinking the room sounds particularly great, and the IRs of the room reflect that.
     
  16. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    The room IR sounds fine and is what one would expect if the mic were placed at a distance from the cab in the room. The room doesn't sound dead to my ears, and in fact it sounds more lively to me than the Two Notes offerings with freely positional mics.
     
  17. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    I thought you didn't like their quality? Weren't you saying authentic room sound is lacking? We're back to my original question.
     
  18. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

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    The room IR's themselves sound fine. It's combining them with close mic'd IR's in order to produce something that sounds authentic that's been a challenge.
     
  19. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    The trick on the Axe-Fx to get room ambience is to do the following in the Reverb block:
    1. Set Predelay to 0
    2. Increase Early Level and/or decrease Late Level.
    3. Adjust Size and Mix to taste.

    When Predaly is at zero the Reverb block is simulating a room. Most of the Reverb presets have a bit of predelay because that is typically done on recordings to get the reverb "out of the way".

    Likewise the Early Reflections are mixed low because most engineers/producers find that they clutter the mix. Playing solo that "in the room" thing is cool but it makes the sound difficult to mix.
     
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  20. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Isn't combining them a challenge because the room IRs don't sound fine? What else could make it a challenge...?

    What's the Waves plugin you're using now to get what you consider an authentic sound?
     

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