When something works, why do so many fight it?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Scott Peterson, Oct 15, 2009.

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  1. edgewound

    edgewound Gold Supporting Member

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    Ok...I listened, and the playing is very good. I just can't get into the vibe of the direct recording from a modeler. Maybe it sounds better live? Something is just viscerally missing for me....probably because I'm a guitar player and know the feeling.

    There is an interaction between the guitar/amp/speaker relationship that is just missing with the modelers.

    Convenience factor is cool. I've considered getting a Tonelab just for that. I think I'd rather have a Groovetubes SE II for going direct since the guitar/amp/speaker interface is still present in some capacity.

    Whatever you like...just isn't for me, I guess.
     
  2. Stef_herbuel

    Stef_herbuel Member

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    i agree
     
  3. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Member

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    :messedup Well the irony WAS clearly lost on you.:messedup
     
  4. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    No, it's not "just like digital", Dr. Scott ;).....nor are we talking about modelling the human ear. It's irrelevent to the topic.

    Again, it's not about digital vs analog. It's about modelling. If you multiply 2x2 and get 4.1, it's not accurate.....whether that multiplication was done in the analog or digital domain.

    Here's the problem again....it's not like typing words. It's much more like using voice recognition to type. Sometimes you get "there" when you meant "they're" or "their". Sometimes you get "Ben's a dream" when you said "benzedrine". Capturing the nuances of voice is a difficult thing....just like capturing the nuances of an instrument or the second order and/or non linear characteristics of an amp. It has nothing to do with being in the digital domain.

    No, again, it's not digital vs. analog. It's the evolution of a model. It's the reason that V9.0 sounds better than V7.0 sounds better than V5.0....despite raves about how fantastic V5.0 was when that was all there was.

    This has nothing to do with modelling the human ear. A "process" doesn't care about analog or digital. You can multiply 5x5 in base 2, 8, or 10. A sliderule is an "analog computer" but a digital calculator is more accurate. Again, it's not about analog vs digital.

    It's not about "can or can't", it's about "how well". There's a lot of talk about haters, but I'm not seeing it. I do see an considerable degree of defensiveness however.....
     
  5. Pietro

    Pietro 2-Voice Guitar Junkie and All-Around Awesome Guy

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    Our hearing is neither analog nor digital, it's physical.

    Digital is where you turn sounds into numbers.

    Analog is where you turn sounds into some kind of "analog"-y of sound, in the case of an LP record it's a groove, in the case of tape it's magnetic impulses on tape.

    Our hearing is a physical reaction of our body, both mechanical and chemical, which results from the interaction of our auditory system with sound waves... moving air, if you will.

    So stop fighting about it.
     
  6. Scott Peterson

    Scott Peterson Administrator and Co-Founder of TGP Staff Member

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    You are fighting the wrong battle. I was responding to one of our members here on one of his points. He believes that hearing is simply the ear drum 'sympathetically' vibrating with vibration. That's not accurate. He was buttressing his 'digital sucks' opinion on that.

    Different people are put on the defensive because someone can jack into any conversation and just lay down the 'digital sucks' stereotype and it's off we go again.

    You can point fingers at me being defensive, but my entire point - even the sideways tangents - was that the push back against what works is completely irrelevant if it does in fact work for any one individual player.

    You have always been a 'dot the i, cross the t' guy and have come after me numerous times. Post a clip of your analog tone monster stuff and explain to me how it's more analog than the clip I just posted. I've never actually heard anything you've ever played online. Not once.

    It's about music. I play guitar, but I do it to make music. And I do it live, I record, I perform. I do it consistently. I've done it since I was in my middle teens. I'm a gear hound that can spend hours in music stores or a buddy's house just jamming and listening and talking gear.

    I know this works. It works because I've heard the reference recordings from years ago with my all tube rigs all along, because it matters to me. I know what I hear, what I feel. And this box, frankly, works. It sounds better and sits better in the mix than anything I've ever used in the past and I can do more with it. It's fun. I don't even think about the gear ever when I play anymore; I haven't for years. I just play. I miss nothing, I don't 'yearn' for anything, I have not felt the need to change up the rig for 2.5 years... because it works. I have sold all my amps, all my pedals, my acoustic rigs, electric rigs... because I can get it all in one thing. That's a remarkable statement.

    I used to get slammed up on by different folks for years on these board because I was always flipping gear, "I thought you were so high on Rivera... and now you use a Bogner?" "Give that rig a few months, you'll be onto something else...." And here I stand, with the same setup I ran in 2007 during one of the busiest gigging/recording schedules I've ever had (I estimate that I've done about 135+ gigs at this point with the Axe-FX) and I jam with it everyday even when I am not gigging or recording, just because I enjoy the experience of PLAYING with this thing as a large part of my equation.

    That's a remarkable statement.

    And it's my personal experience, my personal opinion and my personal reality.

    And that's not being defensive, that's saying - hey, this thing really works for me.

    This thread in particular is a lot like even the first Axe-FX threads I put up; or even when I was mucking around making the POD stuff work... because I had to make that stuff work. A lot of drive-by, a lot of naysayers. It is easy enough to just ignore any of my threads or posts; I label my subject lines on my threads pretty clearly. Yet folks are still - to this day - compelled to jack into them and drop bombs. And if I respond to them, I come off as 'defensive'. Sorry, I can't change that impression.

    Let's here your clips Fullerplast. Not as in any challenge or battle mind you, but as a reference point. You and I have been going around for years; yet I've never once heard your stuff.
     
  7. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    Since "what works" is clearly subjective and individual it would be silly to even argue that point. You can define "works" to be whatever you want. The Variax as a banjo "works" for some, the POD "worked" for you when you used it.

    My focus is on the ability of models to accurately capture the nuances of actual physical amps, not whether they make a pleasing sound that is useable. Two completely different goals. One has a clear baseline, the other has only a personal threshold of "what works".

    :huh Even if I did have the recording gear and/or inclination to spend time to make clips for you, what purpose would that serve in the context of this discussion?
     
  8. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Member

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    You Axe Fx Fan boys are delusional why won't you just accept that even conceptually it is not without compromise.
    "IT IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR EVERYONE."
    Some of us hear and feel its limitations.You may not care but that doesn't mean they are not there.
    End of discussion.
     
  9. 2leod

    2leod Re-Member

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    I will say to you that your perception of a clear baseline is as much a personal threshold as what you claim the other to be. As well, I will say that your arguments on this perception are, in my opinion, what the whole thread is about. Why does it trouble you enough to continue the insistance in this thread?
     
  10. Scott Peterson

    Scott Peterson Administrator and Co-Founder of TGP Staff Member

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    Exactly But that's not even part of this discussion. It is ENTIRELY subjective, and what ever you use and enjoy is valid, period. This discussion, though in this section, was never intended to be another roundtable on modeling... read the OP.

    As for the clips, you've gone round and round with dozens if not hundreds of folks on all sorts of topics, but I've never heard what you do or anything related to music... which is at the core of what I'm talking about.

    This has nothing do with the Axe-FX, nor was the thread intended to be another discussion on that topic. Read the OP.

    And frankly, I don't see how my feelings towards my gear relates to you in any way, shape or form. Because it works for me doesn't mean it works for you. To quote a phrase, Why so serious?

    It's posts like Eagle1's that make guys look defensive. Drop the Axe-FX reference out of his post and substitute in anything, Les Paul, PRS, Fender, Bogner, Dumble, and tell me how to answer his post or discuss anything with him without even seeming defensive?

    You are right about one thing Eagle1, I care what you think about as much as you care what I think. But the difference is that I don't drop in your threads and post that sort of thing on you.

    Please point out where I said, ever, that the Axe-FX is the answer for everyone. Because, frankly, I did not. I have said, many times that it is the answer for me. That doesn't mean anything other than what it is. Subjective and personal. I don't recall showing up at your gig with my rig and saying, "whoa man, you are using the wrong gear. Use my rig, it's the answer for everyone."

    Seems a bit silly eh? Because it is. I never said that and setting up statements like, implying that I did, is indeed the 'end of discussion' because it isn't even part of any discussion.

    And Fullerplast, if you want an illustration of the 'hater' thing I was talking about, read Eagle1's post right here and break down - whether you agree with him or not - how that's not offensive.
     
  11. fetishfrog

    fetishfrog Member

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    You Tube Amp Fan boys are delusional why won't you just accept that even conceptually it is not without compromise.
    "IT IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR EVERYONE."
    Some of us hear and feel its limitations.You may not care but that doesn't mean they are not there.
    End of discussion
     
  12. Galo

    Galo Member

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    Your answer is of course, if it doesn't work for you!!!! I'm amusing you are talking about the axefx!!!

    I use both analog and the digital....tools baby!!!

    But, a pignose amp, a champ and a twin reverb has limitations also..do we talk about that?...I guess that would also make the owners of those amps also delusional :huh

    Limitations are cause by having to use the wrong tools for a job.

     
  13. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    Your prior statements, however, have been to the effect that "IT IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR ANYONE."

    Were you to confine your observations to the above - I've made it a point to say exactly the same thing numerous times - you'd begin to sound almost reasonable.

    And the possibility exists as well that you think you are hearing something that is not there. There are many documented cases of this phenomenon. The audiophile world is replete with examples. Your assertion that something is true does not make it so.

    Where you are concerned, there has never been a "discussion." The concept of "discussion" requires the exchange of ideas, as opposed to vigorously-asserted, completely unsupported, statements.
     
  14. Jarrett

    Jarrett Member

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    I wonder this every time I open TGP.

    Scott, I think people just want to fight with you. Either because you are a mod or because have strong opinions or whatever. They just want to pick a fight. And they know the words "digital" or "modeling" and especially "Axe-FX" automatically gets a response from you.
     
  15. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    Not at all. The baseline for me is the physical amp sitting on the floor in front of me. No perception, just reality.

    That's why I'm saying there is a difference between modelling to completely replicate a physical example and modelling to make a pleasing sound. Pretty basic difference.
     
  16. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    Well, of course enjoyment is valid. You can't possibly think the thread would stay focused on "I like what I like and that's good enough for me"?

    Again :huh. Why? You want people to post clips of "sounds we like"? I'm not reading that in your OP....



    Yes, I can see that....but don't use a broad stroke brush when a fine point is needed for the job. It's not always obvious whether you are talking about many people, or one.
     
  17. Scott Peterson

    Scott Peterson Administrator and Co-Founder of TGP Staff Member

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    Yes, yes I did. And why would it not? The actual question posed in the OP is why do so many feel the need to go after someone if they don't like the gear that person likes? That's what the discussion was supposed to be about.

    Because it is part and parcel of the discussion. I recorded a demo song and posted a clip to give context and reference for "what works for me" and I'm asking you to do the same. You won't/can't/don't and so it is. You can beg off the question and point all you want, a spade is a spade. You've played this game for years on topics ranging from guitars, hardware, amps and to this device. It's your MO to pick things down to the nitty gritty and ride that till it's raw, but I've never heard one spec of music from you even once. Music is the shared experience we as musicians can base our understanding of each other on, I've never heard anything musical from you.



    Then get clarification before going after what I say.
     
  18. MereImage

    MereImage Member

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    And if worms had machine guns, birds wouldn't mess with them. So what?

    The above post is the same as sitting down with a group of people discussing the fall of the Roman empire and saying "trees".

    Dave
     
  19. Scott Peterson

    Scott Peterson Administrator and Co-Founder of TGP Staff Member

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    Jarrett,

    The guys going after me here at this point of the thread have been 'going after me' for years on anything related to the Axe-FX. They are illustrating my OP perfectly though, which in a roundabout way is exactly the point I was making.

    It's all good. :D
     
  20. Pietro

    Pietro 2-Voice Guitar Junkie and All-Around Awesome Guy

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    I used to use modeling, because amps suck.

    Now I use amps, because modeling sucks.

    Next year I'm going to start saving for an Axe-FX. Why? Because I have never even heard of a product in any category that has worked so well for so many people in my life.

    I figure when I sell all my amps it'll probably pay for it.

    And, I hate to say this, but too many of the tube amp tone purists who nit-pick over stuff like this (I'm sometimes one of them, btw) are more concerned with how their amp sounds to their ears than to the audience.

    If you want to play in your bedroom or living room or just sound great to yourself and forget everybody else, fine. For me, I make music (for a living) for an audience (actually a congregation), and anything that makes my music better for them... is better for me...

    Scott, you're winning me over, slowly but surely.

    And every argument against your Axe-FX totally proves your point in the OP.
     
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