Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by effectsman, Oct 16, 2017.
according to whose ears?
Either G12-M's, or G12-65's. Both speakers have a nice, warm crunch sound to them. The G12-65's have slightly less highs and work better for hard rock/heavier distortion, in my experience. Speakers with heavier magnets like the G12H sound too harsh to me (that's just my opinion-some people love them).
The worst speakers you could get for guitar amps are 'flat' ones IMHO. JBL, Altec Lansing, Electro Voice. Stay away from that type of speaker for a guitar amp, as it's made to do double duty as a flat frequency response PA speaker, and they sound like utter garbage for guitar.
Guitar speakers inherently color the sound and are interesting to the ear, and even though that means some of them won't be to your likening (midrange or otherwise), you need to find one with the proper color for you. I would start with Celestion or Weber. Alnicos from Weber or ceramic vintage style Greenbacks are a great place to start.
Stay as far away as you can from Stereo / PA type speakers for guitar amps, they are absolute Junk for guitar, and will make you sound flat and lifeless at best, horrific at worst.
Vintage Jensen alnicos were great, not so much for the repros. Webers sound better.
Can't speak to all of these but an EVM 12L is far from flat. Sounds glorious with a Fender or Mesa amp at various levels of gain. Maybe you were talking about a different speaker from EV
In comparison to a Celestion though?
The best midrange speaker for full complex mids is the Eminence Governor. There... now wasn't that easy?
'Flat' doing two different jobs in two different contexts. It can mean 'even through the frequencies' and it can mean 'lifeless', but they aren't the same meaning.
There are a few of these terms knocking about which have a technical sense and a 'moral' sense: 'warm' is a good example, because it tends to equate to 'I like this sound' but it means relatively treble-light and (probably) smooth. No one seems to say 'my guitar sound is warm and I don't like it'.
I would, HATE it
Oh how I wish more guitarists felt exactly like you do, so the price of those amazing speakers would plummet.
Best tone I ever got in live venues was a Fender 75 with a JBL K-120. Sweet but every note could be heard. This was while playing a 335 semi-hollow body. I listen to live recordings of it today and am still blown away. Band members and audience seemed likewise enamored.
You're a bright man, then?
What about 'fat'? Is that good or bad to you?
I played this in a 1 x 12" combo and it filled a pretty big room. Huge sound.
I have been trying a 1x12 g12h anniversary with another 1x12 celestion a-type with a marshall 1987 style and i really like the way they complement each other. The a-type seems to lack some high mids which the anniversary brings, together they sound much better to me than each on their own.
For my mesa mark IV, I am using a ev12l 8 ohm in the 4 ohm tap and a emi texas heat 16 ohm in the 8 ohm tap. The EV is definitely louder, and has excellent clarity, and the TH is providing some texture that I like. They both have a lot of upper mids and I am
finding I want to run my presences pulled out and turned down to compensate esp. at band volume, it can rip your head off.
I've noticed with this amp -- with the presence pushed in, it seems to have less negative feedback on the whole, and the whole range of the knob is much less, and the janglyness can be too much. with it pulled out and on 10, it is kind of similar to pushed in, but the knob then gives you a larger range to control the hi-mids. the 2200 on the eq also allows control in thisd range. Sorry for ramble...
I also have a 16 ohm tonker I am interested to try switching out with the texas heat for the boogie.
I kinda understand where you’re coming from with this but couldn’t disagree more. There are some good sounds to be be had with some low power A type speakers in certain cabs, with certain amps, as they overdrive and compress. And they can really feel alive under your fingers. But those same speakers,especially in mid to higher wattage 1x12 open back combos, can sound like a harsh fart. It’s all about matching the right speaker to the right amp and using it in the right application.
To say that you can’t get beautiful, musical, dynamic, touch sensitive tone from the speakers you listed is absolutely ridiculous. Where can I start, SRV (EV’s,JBL’s), G Moore (EV’s), J Bonamassa (EV’s), D Gilmour (Fanes), etc., etc. I could go on and on. I’ll be honest, my favorite cab I’ve ever owned is a 2x12 handmade partially open back with a EV force 12 and a Fane Medusa. Sounds massive even with el84’s
Gee, I guess SRV didn't know what he was doing!
I suggest you corner the market, you'll be doing future generations of guitarist a service, as they won't have the opportunity to make a mistake ...
I will amend my statement to include :
In a mix along with other 'complex sounding and true guitar oriented speakers' a JBL or other PA type speakers might actually help, in some cases.
But that's also saying like a HF compression driver may help a PA to sound better... Of course it does, but you wouldn't want to use them alone in isolation. Things would sound a bit trebly and harsh with no Bass !
Admittedly that last example is extreme, but still a good analogy. I've Owned and used JBL E120s in cabinets with a rack system years ago. I EQ's them to sound ok, but I shortly began to realize that with all my fiddling with frequency response, they NEVER sounded as good as an ordinary Celetion behind my old Marshall Plexi or Fender Bassman Blonde head. I tried, and I'm rather good with my 31 band EQ.
Or for that matter, the JBLs (as an example) never sounded half as good as any of my Valco's using Jensen or Rola real musical instrument speakers. I was using a speaker (JBL-120) designed primarily for use with a PA or monitor cabinet (JBL 4602b) :
JBL didn't tell us that, It was an attempt to broaden their market to include guitar amps as well as stage and studio monitor cabinets. Other PA manufacturers (EV) have played the same games, and rebadged or slightly altered their fundamental PA designed speakers to capture some of the guitar market.
Simply put, those 'other' dedicated guitar amp speakers (Celestion, Jensen, and Rola) were specifically made for Guitar amps. Not so with the JBL-120's, and some EV speakers. Their speakers were used consistently in many stage monitors and PAs because of there efficiency, and relatively flat frequency response. They were primarily designed for Music reproduction, not to add the proper color to a guitar sound. Those speakers were sometimes incorporated into professional guitar rigs to satisfy some tangential need for brightness, and JBL and EV started to go along with this, and to sell more speakers... It's not a good starting point overall, as you will be constantly swimming upstream to get a good guitar tone IMHO.
I'm sure they could be made to 'Work' in a variety of contexts, but why go through all the trouble when the smart guys at Celestion, Jensen, Rola (years ago), Weber, and serveral others guitar speaker manufacturers have done the work for you, by creating a speaker that Generally sounds good with most guitar amps ? Why swim against the tide if you don't have to ?
Again, you can do what you like, and you will get what you get, and if you are happy with using a PA speaker in your guitar amp, please by all means proceed as planned.
In my Tube Amp based rig, I'm not going to start with any frequency handicap, I believe it's foolish and irresponsible for the sake of being different.
By the way, I use JBL powered cabinets when running my Modeling Rig (I have Vintage tube amps and also own an Eleven Rack) because the JBLs in that context : (used to reproduce an amp model / cabinet model) are accurate in reproducing the great cabinet models that Avid so painstakingly developed. With that combination, If I didn't have a powerful flat self-powered cabinet, I would most likely be using JBL or EV drivers along with HF drivers and a crossover as a compliment. Then it would make sense.
Don't swim against the tide unless you have to, or if you have a team of audio engineers at your beck and call to work out the details, and a lot of extra money and time to burn, then go right ahead if it floats your boat.
Don't just be different for the sake of it, It generally goes wrong if that's your primary motivation. Make it easy on yourself and use speakers that were actually designed to work with the majority of guitar amps as your starting point. Most professional guitarists play that way, and most iconic recordings used a conventional guitar speaker to get the great sound.
You don't need to site the exceptions in the occasional professional guitarist who successfully uses them. I am aware of them as well, but they are not the norm, and again, there are specific reasons why it works for them. Don't make it hard on yourself. There is no need based on the wide variety of genuine guitar speakers out there. I suggest you stay away from PA type speakers.
Celestions are a good start for real guitar speakers, but there are several other manufacurers who have a line of genuine dedicated guitar amp speakers. Don't be fooled so easily by the PA speaker pretenders. Insist on genuine guitar speakers from EV, or any other manufactures, or you should pass on it, IMHO.