Which pedal switches are silent and dont have that loud click. Something smooth.

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by XXTwighlight, Dec 21, 2009.

  1. XXTwighlight

    XXTwighlight Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,239
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2003
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I have a Lovepedal babyface trem and it has a smoother switch than the loud clicking ones on most pedals.
    What are these switches?
    Thanx
     
  2. bulbasaur_85

    bulbasaur_85 Member

    Messages:
    1,487
    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    They are momentary switches, like those found on tap tempo pedals, but they differ in that they utilize a relay. Cusack and Lovepedal are the only ones I've seen use the relay switching system. On Cusack's website, he calls it TBS^2, or something close to that, and it looks like he may sell a kit with the soft switch and relay soon.
     
  3. whoismarykelly

    whoismarykelly Oh look! This is a thing I can change!

    Messages:
    7,425
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Location:
    Baltimore
    A mechanical switch has to move physical contacts and snap them into place so there will always be noise involved in that mechanical movement. Relays also make noise but it is typically muffled by the enclosure.
     
  4. mondo500

    mondo500 Member

    Messages:
    588
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Mesa V-Twin also has relay switches... I was pleased to find them on my Cusack Screamer when I bought it; I'd like to see them on more pedals...
     
  5. Jack DeVille

    Jack DeVille Member

    Messages:
    1,940
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    It sounds as though there are two different "noises" being described above.
    One is the click heard by the movement of the mechanical parts within the pushbutton switch or relay. The other is the noise heard through the signal chain as the signal path is re-routed.

    Relay systems can generate noise just as a pushbutton system can. Both are mechanical devices. A relay typically will have a smaller contact and lighter spring tension snapping the contacts one direction or another, thus generating less noise as the switch de-bounces.

    I have yet to encounter a quiet true-bypass design utilizing a pushbutton switch. While some designs minimize the "thump" or "pop" heard from a potential difference on each pole of the switch, all systems I've encountered produce quite a bit of noise as the switch de-bounces. Relays can get pretty quiet, but you must be clever with your design in order to minimize the switching noise inherent in a mechanical switch.

    Gain pedals (boosts, overdrive, distortion, fuzz etc) often mask the noise present in the switching system due to their natural volume jump when engaged. One way to test if your system is actually quiet is:
    Run your amplifier's gain and or master volume all the way up, run your guitar volume all the way down. You should now be fully amplifying ground potential. Engage and disengage the effect in question. You may be surprised at the noise a "quiet" true-bypass system generates. You may be surprised to find out those "quiet" boss pedals aren't so quiet!

    Cusack is a sharp and clever designer. His innovations are inspirational and elegant in execution.
     
  6. forum_crawler

    forum_crawler Member

    Messages:
    7,154
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Location:
    Winnipeg, MB
    Not always the case, the lovepedal pickle vibe has a relay type of switch, yet, it pops almost every time...
     
  7. burningyen

    burningyen Vendor

    Messages:
    13,380
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Location:
    CT
    Tech21 uses great relay switches.
     
  8. Frankee

    Frankee Wartime Consigliere

    Messages:
    25,496
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Location:
    Santo Poco
    TC electronics uses the momentary no/nc type as well.
     
  9. Bloodbath

    Bloodbath Member

    Messages:
    110
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Relay switches are nice but most of them consume energy to remain in one position unlike mechanical switches. This makes batteries not last very long. I think there are some with a magnetic latch that holds them in position without consuming excess power. The trick would be to find one that consumes very low power or no power at all when switched.

    At least that is my understanding of relays.
     
  10. el profe

    el profe Member

    Messages:
    92
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Location:
    WA
    I've built a couple BYOC pedals and I'd love to wire in those switches that Lovepedal uses. I've seen them on Smallbear's site, but I haven't been able to find a schematic for how incorporate them. Anyone have a link to a schematic?

    I'd like to try one of those switches in my wah. I have to stomp on that thing to get it to turn on. But that might leave me turning my wah off at the bottom of every sweep. I'd still like to give it a try.
     
  11. Jack DeVille

    Jack DeVille Member

    Messages:
    1,940
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Non-latching relays will consume power when engaged, as power must be continually applied to the coil in order to keep the electromagnet energized and thus the relay engaged. Employing a non-latching relay in a battery-powered stompbox seems like a step backward to me, as a latching switching system must still be used to hold the non-latching relay in its engaged state. I can see no reason to use a relay under these circumstances.

    HOWEVER:

    Latching relays only require a short burst of power to "toggle" the relay and thus change the state of the internal switch(es). Latching relays "hold" their present state without power applied. Now we're talking!

    The rub:
    Latching relays operate in a few basic fashions.
    Some require polarity of the switching coil to be reversed to toggle the switch into the initial position.
    Some have a separate "reverse" coil which needs to be energized in order to toggle the switch into the initial position. (its not really called the "reverse" coil. The name escapes me right now).

    There are further considerations when employing a relay. Flyback voltage can induce a small amount of current into the switch varying with the coil's proximity to the switch mechanism. This can cause an unwanted signal to appear in the switched path. Lame.

    There are many ways to overcome/circumvent these inherent properties, but you gotta be "clever."
     
  12. Jack DeVille

    Jack DeVille Member

    Messages:
    1,940
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    You are a very sharp guy. What if your wah only engaged when you moved the rocker away from the "heel-down" position? Thus automatically bypassing when placed in the "heel-down" position?

    The only downside here is that the "cocked-wah" sound is eliminated. Unless there is a master engage option...

    You got the wheels in my head turning now. Thank you.
     
  13. yellowecho

    yellowecho Member

    Messages:
    3,284
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Location:
    Alabama
    the new Way Huge stuff has my favorite switches- they're awesome!!
     
  14. tonefreak

    tonefreak Member

    Messages:
    2,461
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Location:
    West Los Angeles, California
    Problem with the pedal (dead battery, defective power supply, defective switch, etc) with the non-latching relays ensures that the uneffected signal goes through the pedal. This is important to some of my clients... they don't want to be stuck with the effect "on" if power to the pedal goes out or if there is a problem with the switch the engages the relay.

    I would prefer latching relays, but as I mentioned before, you could get stuck with the effect "on" as they hold their present state if something bad happens.

    In terms of relays, I guess it really depends on the user. A person like myself that never gigs or tours, probably would like to extend the battery life... but I use a Pedal Power, so I really doesn't matter. A touring musician is probably using a pedal power supply, but might not want to risk the pedal staying in the "on" state if something bad happends... non-latching would probably better suit this individual.

    I'm sure you played around with multiplexer switches... I'm experimenting with them now and it seems promising. Of course, if not designed properly there will be some popping.

    If anyone has any questions about relays, RG Keen has written some articles about them... you can even build your own relay true bypass box for kicks.

    http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/remoteftsw.pdf
    http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/relays/relays_for_switching_audio_signa.htm
    http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/relays2.gif
     
  15. Jack DeVille

    Jack DeVille Member

    Messages:
    1,940
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Yes, this would seem to be the case. This depends entirely on how the control system is designed. A well planned system will account for scenarios such as a dying battery, faulty input signals, poorly filtered power, etc, and will also have fail-safes built into the system ensuring proper system operation.

    Non-Latching relays are not perfect devices either. If you own a later 80's - early 90's Honda Accord that's left you stranded and four techs scratching their heads, you will know EXACTLY what I'm referring to. Keep in mind, a non-latching system requires that the latching switching control system is free of faults as well. By and large, the most common repair I perform on small market pedals is switch replacement, due to a faulty stomp switch.

    The long and short: there is NO perfect system. Every implementation will have its strengths and weaknesses. All we can hope for is that strengths are maximized, while weaknesses are minimized.
     
  16. tonefreak

    tonefreak Member

    Messages:
    2,461
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Location:
    West Los Angeles, California
    100% agreement!
     
  17. nathandurnwald

    nathandurnwald Member

    Messages:
    4
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    I just got a Pog2 and the bypass switch makes a loud noise when I switch it on. Can you like WD40 it or something? Its annoying when i have the reverb pedal on cause then the noise is LOUDER and distracting during a set. Any help?
     
  18. nathandurnwald

    nathandurnwald Member

    Messages:
    4
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Sorry to be more clear ^...... Its just a "click" sound when I stomp on it. Its not an ongoing noise while its on.
     
  19. burningyen

    burningyen Vendor

    Messages:
    13,380
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Location:
    CT
    Nothing you can really do about it other than give the switch a few stomps before you perform to get rid of any built up charge/capacitance. Or replace the switch with a soft relay switch.
     
  20. Bloodbath

    Bloodbath Member

    Messages:
    110
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Please don't squirt WD-40 into any part of your pedal. It's messy and it won't help. It's a mechanical/latching switch and it's always going to make that snap to some extent. I suppose you could open it up and put some sort of non-conducting grease in there to try and quiet it down a little.
     

Share This Page