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Whole seep and half step diminished scales

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Steve1216, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Bb7

    Bb7 Member

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    Yes! Fun to work this kind of thing out in the practice room, but nobody wants to hear you do your taxes.... Left Brain gets left off the bandstand.
     
  2. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    A little more on the bebop harmonized scale,

    The three basic bebop scales are major, miner, and dominant.

    Bebop Major
    C D E F G G# A B C
    Has four B dim7 chords + Cmaj6

    Bebop natural minor
    C D Eb F G Ab Bb B C
    Has four B dim7 chords + Cm7

    Bebop dominant
    C D E F G A Bb B C
    Has four B dim7 + C7

    Bebop melodic minor
    C D Eb F G G# A B C
    Has four B dim chords + Cm6
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
    MikeMcK likes this.
  3. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    Except the root, right?
     
  4. frdagaa

    frdagaa Supporting Member

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    ???
    Where's the C dim 7?
     
  5. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Very simply, going to the IV in G
    (Top 4 strings)
    -----3-2-1-------|------------------|-
    ---3-------2------|-------------3-6|-5
    -4-----------1----|----1-4-3-5- ---|-
    ---------------3--|-2-4-------------|-
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  6. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Um.... yes. Well caught.:oops:
     
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  7. cubistguitar

    cubistguitar Member

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    You play dim on the non chord tones, here the chord tones are CEGBb, so on the A play ACEbGb, Cdim7
     
  8. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    I feel like I'm in trouble for correcting the school headmaster.
     
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  9. ivers

    ivers Member

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    For a bit of a diffferent approach, I really like how Scott Henderson seems to loan E major and C# major triads from the D whole half diminished scale to add color, and also lead to the D major idea on the next chord, Gm.



    For vamps, or chords that last over many bars before changing, mixing these whole half based triads with some pentatonics and McCoy Tyner-ish quartal ideas can give cool lines that have the diminished sound, but convey it through basic major triad sounds. I love diminished arpeggios as much as the next Yngwie Malmsteen or Django Reinhardt fan, but sometimes sneaking the sound in there through these major triads is a refreshing way to experience the diminished.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  10. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Not at all. I was just checking you were paying attention! Well done!
    (Ahem.....)
     
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  11. cubistguitar

    cubistguitar Member

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    I understood bebop scale harmony to be :

    Play the home chord on the chord tones and diminished on the non chord tones

    On the bebop dominant the "home" chord is C E G Bb
    So on D F A and B play a diminished 7th
    so DFAbB and FAbBD and ACEbGb and BDFAb
    (3) Bdim7 and (1) Cdim7

    I always faltered on the dom7bebop because of this inconsistency, but the chords aren't formed by the scales necessarily, just play the "home chord on the chord tones and dim7 on non chord tones, it seems more chord scale on the other ones because the the dim7 chords are in the scale, but the concept is meant to allow easy harmonization of melodies when all you get is a chord symbol and a melody, the rule is chord tones are harmonized with the chord in the symbol and the rest get a dim7 chord
     
  12. frdagaa

    frdagaa Supporting Member

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    Ok. I’m no Barry Harris disciple and therefore don’t know the doctrine but I don’t like this. I think the home chord should be C E G A Bb. Gets rid of the problem of adding in that extra, unwanted Eb and Gb.
     
  13. cubistguitar

    cubistguitar Member

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    the easiest way to say it is this, it is a melodic concept first and foremost, the harmonic concept is added to this later

    but the rule is to have tones between chord tones ( no room between A and Bb), and those tones are harmonized with the diminished 7 chord, already adding a pesky Ab that isn't in the scale

    perhaps we should have dominant bebop ( or it's mode, G dorian bebop) use half diminished chords for the second chord
    then the chord on C or E or G or Bb is C7 and on D or F or A or B is Dm6/Bm7b5
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  14. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Alan Pasqua has a book about how he approaches diminished lines. He does seem to imply the triads but generally avoids any sequences like the plague.
     
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  15. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Don't worry, the Barry Harris 'doctrine' was around, previously, in plenty of arranging books and David Baker books.
     
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  16. Bb7

    Bb7 Member

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    Yeah never really checked out Barry Harris' thing - alternating 6ths and dim7s? That always reminded me of big band writing... He had some other Slonimsky kinds of approaches I vaguely remember... Heard him play with his trio once - unbelievable....
     
  17. Bb7

    Bb7 Member

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    Dexter's Doctrine


     
  18. ivers

    ivers Member

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    I need to check out that. Love Pasqua's playing!
     
  19. MikeMcK

    MikeMcK Member

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    Nice... including 2 voicings I almost never use (but will tonight... damn Christmas songs). Question, though... while this works either way, was the last chord meant to be Abdim7?
     
  20. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Charles Colin publishes it but I must have gotten it from Alan's website 'cause it's signed.
     

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