Why a tweeter on FRFR speakers? Why not a 2",3" or 4" for less shrill highs?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by XXTwighlight, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. ivanh3

    ivanh3 Member

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    I am using my Atomic Amplifire. If I put the Amplifire level knob to 12 oclock and same for the L2M, it sounds really nice and full. Although depending on how the next show or two goes, I may be liquidating some gear and getting a Shure PSM 300 pro version.
     
  2. XXTwighlight

    XXTwighlight Member

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    Yes, that's what I was asking.
    So basically FRFR monitors are made for modeling gear (not SS) and the cab sim choice would balance the tweeters harshness which is normally an issue with a tube or SS amp. But now Im curious if its a compromise? If you use a cab sim to tame the tweeter, wouldn't that same cab sim darken the woofer...and vice/versa...?

    Would using a cab sim unit such as the Two Notes Torpedo for example with a Solid State amp such as the Quilter then work at making the
    monitor w/tweeter more manageable? Or are they better used for modeling gear?
    Thanx
     
  3. aleclee

    aleclee TGP Tech Wrangler Staff Member

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    I don't think you have a firm handle on what "darken" means or what a guitar cabinet affects the sound of an amp.

    Like the cab, the cab sim rolls off most highs above ~5KHz. The sim doesn't "tame the tweeter", it modifies the signal running through it so doesn't have excessive treble. In that light, I hope you can see how it wouldn't "darken" the woofer (though the cab sim probably also rolls off some low end as well).
     
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  4. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    You're still getting it wrong. The cab sim simulates the sound of a guitar cab. The tweeter does not cause "harshness," it reproduces any harshness that is present in the signal. There is a huge difference.

    No.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
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  5. mattball826

    mattball826 Member

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    You may be able to eq some things out, but a cranked compression driver will still hiss. They do on kb amps, bass cabs, and powered speakers. It's just a byproduct of that type of system. Some worse than others.
     
  6. mattball826

    mattball826 Member

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    http://www.usspeaker.com/BETA12LT-1.htm

    These are close enough for most live work and you can use the cab models and IR's in your presets.
    They roll off at 8Khz so they won't have any real sizzle.

    Pr of these in a 212 cab can sound pretty good. I have a set in an EarCandy Buzz Bomb. It works good with modelers. No, it's not like traditional guitar amps, and YES, you have to tweak any presets for that speaker type. I haven't tried 4 in a 4x12. I don't know anyone who has either.

    Once the majority accepted powered PA cabs for their guitar and modeler, I think the designers scrapped any passive options.

    Best sounding FR coaxial driver I heard:

    http://www.avgearshop.com/speakers/...-coaxial-woofers/selenium-12c02p-speaker.html
     
  7. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    No. The transducers in a system cannot create noise, they can only reproduce it. If anything in the electronics generates hiss, any full range system, regardless of the type of transducer used for high frequencies, will radiate the hiss exactly as efficiently as it radiates the intended signal.

    No. It is the result of noisy electronics and/or incompetent setting of gain structure.

    Yep. Well-designed electronics will produce much less hiss. And knowledgeable configuration of system gain structure will keep hiss at the lowest possible level.

    The very best analog electronics - think vintage UREI signal processing gear - can have a dynamic range (the difference between maximum possible level and noise floor) of 120dB or more. The electronics in typical MI equipment may have as little as 65-70dB dynamic range. If you have your gain set to allow, say, 120dB maximum SPL in such a system, then you'll get up to 55dB hiss. That's a lot. If you screw up setting the gain structure, you'll add 10-15dB to that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  8. seclusion

    seclusion Member

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    Yes the never ending tweak.
    I use The Axe with powered Ev's PA monitors.
    I was getting frustrated with making tones for the studio (direct) and tones (live).
    So now I find, minimal changes are needed for either, I use cab IR's on all the time.
    Plugging in an amp with no speaker emulation will sound harsh and brittle through any PA system or even in high end studios consoles.
    Some of the makers of FRFR monitors do add some control over the high end.
    Good luck.
     
  9. lspaulsp

    lspaulsp Gold Supporting Member

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  10. ballhawk

    ballhawk Supporting Member

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    I have used the beta12 speaker mentioned above. Had it in a 1x12 cab and used it with my tonelab. It allowed me to use the TL's cab sims which at least gave a little more versatility to my sound.

    I consider it a good value priced alternative if you want to go with something of that nature.

    I use a powered wedge with my amplifre. Obviously IR's make the difference.
     
  11. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

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    The EV ZXA1 is like this as well. I didn't think I'd ever find an EV product I didn't like, but the ZXA1 broke that idea.
     
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  12. ratiug

    ratiug Member

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    This is something that I could never understand, the modelers emulate cabinets. Most classic cabs like Fender or Marshall have speakers whose freq. range top out at 5 khz, so why is a horn even necessary. The only reason I can think of is that they are trying to emulate guitar sounds off of albums and CD's which have mixing and mastering . But using a tweeter to emulate cabs that top out at 6khz at most just doesn't make sense.
    On my digital effects I just cut everything over 6 khz anyway which removes all fizz
     
  13. ltkojak

    ltkojak Member

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    Responding to a 4-year-old thread...?

    Well, better late than never, isn't it? :p
     
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  14. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Member

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    Guitar cab rolls off at 6k. If your monitor also starts to roll off at 6k then now your "emulation" has a roll-off that is twice as steep as the thing you are trying to emulate.

    A monitor with a tweeter should only be excessively bright and shrill if it's sent a bright shrill signal. If it is sent a signal that rolls off at 12/dB perictave at 6k it will accurately reproduce the signal with the proper roll-off. To do that it must remain flat well beyond 6k.
     
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  15. Lele

    Lele Member

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    If you used just a woofer of a cabinet, you couldn't get a proper tone, because it would be colored in an extreme way by its limited frequency response.
    In this frequency response graph you can see a typical 2-way ported speaker:
    [​IMG]
    Violet line = tweeter
    Blue line = woofer
    Yellow line = port (the vent cut of a bass reflex system)

    You can see that if you turned off the tweeter, the remaining frequency response could not cover properly the electric guitar sound at all. Any 2-way speaker will have a rather different frequency response, but the concept is the same. To get a someway "flat" frequency response covering the whole electric guitar spectrum you will need both the woofer and the tweeter. And as it was stated in other previous posts, it depends on the cab simulation block to "tame" the highs and to emit the accurate frequency response of a typical guitar speaker cabinet.

    Source of the graph above is here
     
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  16. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

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    You may not need or want response above 6k in a guitar speaker for most tones, especially overdriven, but you may need more high end response for effects like reverb or pitch shifting.
     
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  17. dspellman

    dspellman Member

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    Bingo. The large majority of the two-way speaker cabinets claiming to be FRFR are poorly designed, use cheap drivers and if they have a crossover at all, have cheaped out on that as well. They may LOOK like the better-designed speakers, but since most guitarists listen with their eyes, that seems to be enough.

    A lot of multi-driver FRFR cabs are like Marshalls. When you crank them, they really don't have enough power to allow the bottom end to keep up. And there's this: some LF drivers simply don't have the cone excursion to keep up even if they DID have enough power apportioned to them. Or they're in boxes that don't support them.

    My current boxes are three-way designs from David Green. David offered a wide range of bass cabinet designs using neo-based Eminence Kappalite 301X LF drivers with a 6.5" 18Sound mids driver and an optional tweeter as DIY plans several years ago. These are full-range and pretty flat response cabinets that happen to support bottom end really really well. The crossover design was "cheap but good" (CBG) and Speakerhardware dot com offered driver kits and even cut sheet plywood kits with everything needed to complete the cabinets (still do), and a lot of these were built. Along the way, some folks didn't want to build their own, so David certified some builders who did good work and delivered on time, and both guitarists and bass players had a lot more of these built. This was the fEARful series.

    The fEARful designs evolved, and David released the fEARless line, available ONLY through authorized builders. These used the 301X LF series low frequency drivers, but subbed in a 5" Faital midrange for the 18Sound. I have both the F112 (3012LF 12" bottom end) and the F115 (3015LF 15" bottom end). The F112 is small, about 20 x 16 x 16.5, and mine (made of Okoume plywood) weighs 34 pounds, but will handle 800W. The F115 is necessarily larger and about 44 lbs and will handle even more power and is more sensitive (louder). These come with a much improved crossover and the bottom end is a bit tighter. You'll still hear the fundamental of the low B on a 5-string without any farting out.

    Turns out these cabs are not only great for bass, but also for keys and modeled guitar. They won't add bottom or top end to your signal if it's not already there. But they will reproduce it cleanly if it IS there. There are two "voicings" (I honestly don't hear much difference) for the mids, and there's a switch on the cabinet for that, and there's a dial (pad) that will allow you to select (or eliminate) the high frequencies from the tweeter.

    I'm really happy with them, and I'm driving them with a 1500W power amp that weighs all of 9 lbs (the bass amp is near identical, but the bunch of controls on the front adds another pound). The cabinets are NOT cheap, but definitely worth a look.
     
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  18. fr8_trane

    fr8_trane Member

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    FRFR is broken IMO and the tweeter seems to be the culprit. The only solution that sounds good to me is a power amp and a real cab. I see all these YT videos where people are using multiple EQ's to dial out the treble in their modeller before it hits the FRFR. With a decent poweramp and real cab I have to do none of that.

    Also for live playing the idea of literally switching amps AND cabs from tone to tone is not appealing to me. I want a certain tonal consistency between my clean, crunch and lead tones and having the same cab for all 3 gives me that consistency even if I'm using a fender, vox and marshall amp for each tone. For recording using different cab/IR's can be useful.
     
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  19. RockManDan

    RockManDan Member

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    This is where I'm at as well. Having a pair of 1x12 guitar cabs (with cab sim turned off) on stage behind me is like a security blanket. It just feels right. Once I found an IR that I like, i use it for everything else, and what I hear in my IEM's and from the FOH feels like the same tone on stage. Although, I am such a stickler for NOT having bright shrill tones that I also roll off some highs using a rack EQ for my guitar cabs, PLUS i'll roll them off on my IEM signal. And even still, most venue sound guys will go, 'man i love your sound, its so balanced'. It's probably too dark of a tone to use for recording, but when amplified in a club where most PA systems are way too bright (probably from being installed/tuned by deaf sound guys), it sounds very smooth to me. And i can get away with higher volume because people aren't having their cochlea hairs singed off by excessive highs like most bands.
     
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  20. vibrostrat43

    vibrostrat43 Member

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    Yeah, I agree with this. Maybe I just haven't found the right combo of IR's between different sounds or levels of drive, but I find a switch in cabinets/IRs more drastic and jarring than switching amps even. From the times I've tried it I've found it to be more distracting than useful.
     

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