why did my ocd disappear?

Messages
1,743
jammed with my counsin' s band yesterday using their own guitar amp, a roland cube 80, mic'd. i used three pedals: vs route 808 for boost, low drive; boss od3 for medium drive and an Ocd for high gain. evrytime i would use the ocd alone my lead volume would disappear. my cousin was using a bd2 into a smaller amp and could be heard better in the mix. so i had to boost the ocd with the 808 all the time. the 808 on full gain sounded better than the ocd. so did the boss od3 which i used for the rest of the night for full gain and the 808 for boost/medium drive. was this the fault of the amp? thanks. any remedies? by the way i already had the mids and highs and preence on the amp allmost full up.
 

stevel

Member
Messages
14,662
Higher saturation "seems" louder, but may not actually be!

Lighter overdrives let a lot of your guitar's own signal come through and are less compressed in general. This means the notes still kind of "pop out" just like when playing clean.

When you use a lot of gain, you're also typically getting more compression as well, so the volume peaks on each note are "clipped off" and don't stand out nearly as much.

Years ago, when I was gigging regularly, I had the chance to sit with my rig mic'd up into the PA, which had LED levels I could watch. I played clean, and then 3 levels of drive like you did. And I was able to set the volumes on each gain so they read the same level on the PA's LED levels.

When you do that, the highly saturated feels as if it's a lot louder than it needs to be, but the overall volume level doesn't really lie (it wasn't like one tone was way more bassy than the other or anything like that).

Another factor is the frequency spectrum of the overdrive - 808 style pedals are mid-boosted - the frequencies that are necessary for cutting through the mix. A lot of higher saturation tends to even out the mids lows and highs (again, this contributes to it seeming louder overall, because the sound is more full range). So the mids won't cut through as much at what seems like the same overall volume.

That you had to boost it with the 808 makes sense - because it's putting those extra mids back into the signal to cut through. It by itself with higher gain also makes sense, because it retains that mid presence.

But, this is probably the problem: You're probably playing at a volume where you're competing with the rest of the band to be heard. You're probably also at a volume where you're pushing things to the brink. That means that even though things might be loud, that extra little oomph from certain frequencies that have to fight a little harder to be heard is necessary - and those frequencies just may not be present in the OCD at those gain settings.

You may just need more power from the amp, but it also helps if the rest of the band knows how to back off when someone's taking a solo. Most bands know little about dynamics, and certain styles are kind of known for a lack of dynamics, but when I'm playing in a band I actually back off and play lighter under the vocals, or when someone else is doing a solo, and so on.

So it may just be a matter of cranking the volume on the OCD to what seems too loud, but actually isn't, or it may be matter of having more power available from the amp, especially with a lead switch.

Oh, I should also mention, if you're using your volume knob to turn up your guitar in a situation like this, that's a no-no. With higher gain, as you turn up your guitar it may just get more saturated and not any louder - a lower gain pedal still has room to get louder, but one set to a higher level of saturation may not - and that also depends on how the pedal was designed to react to more or less input from the guitar.

For example, there's a HUGE difference between 5 and 10 on my guitar when I'm playing totally clean. But if I turn on a drive pedal and set the volume to sound the same as my amp with the volume on 5, when I turn up to 10 the overdrive only gets slightly louder, but way more saturated - but nowhere near the volume the amp will be when I turn the pedal off!

So you could be experiencing some of that - each of those pedals (and the amp itself) may react quite differently to the various input levels.

The way around that is to set your "lead volume" on each pedal with your guitar on whatever is going to be lead volume (like 10) on all settings.

Then when you're playing rhythm, you'll just have to back off the volume knob on the guitar - but it will likely be very different for all pedals - you might only have to back off to 3 on the OCD, but backing off to 6 might be enough on the 808. That means you'll have to constantly listen for your rhythm volume and adjust, but at least you know all lead volumes will cut through.

Then, if you only use 1 pedal or combo for leads, you have to work the same thing out with them - stacking pedals also makes them react differently.

HTH
 

Caribou

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,051
Higher saturation "seems" louder, but may not actually be!

Lighter overdrives let a lot of your guitar's own signal come through and are less compressed in general. This means the notes still kind of "pop out" just like when playing clean.

When you use a lot of gain, you're also typically getting more compression as well, so the volume peaks on each note are "clipped off" and don't stand out nearly as much.

Years ago, when I was gigging regularly, I had the chance to sit with my rig mic'd up into the PA, which had LED levels I could watch. I played clean, and then 3 levels of drive like you did. And I was able to set the volumes on each gain so they read the same level on the PA's LED levels.

When you do that, the highly saturated feels as if it's a lot louder than it needs to be, but the overall volume level doesn't really lie (it wasn't like one tone was way more bassy than the other or anything like that).

Another factor is the frequency spectrum of the overdrive - 808 style pedals are mid-boosted - the frequencies that are necessary for cutting through the mix. A lot of higher saturation tends to even out the mids lows and highs (again, this contributes to it seeming louder overall, because the sound is more full range). So the mids won't cut through as much at what seems like the same overall volume.

That you had to boost it with the 808 makes sense - because it's putting those extra mids back into the signal to cut through. It by itself with higher gain also makes sense, because it retains that mid presence.

But, this is probably the problem: You're probably playing at a volume where you're competing with the rest of the band to be heard. You're probably also at a volume where you're pushing things to the brink. That means that even though things might be loud, that extra little oomph from certain frequencies that have to fight a little harder to be heard is necessary - and those frequencies just may not be present in the OCD at those gain settings.

You may just need more power from the amp, but it also helps if the rest of the band knows how to back off when someone's taking a solo. Most bands know little about dynamics, and certain styles are kind of known for a lack of dynamics, but when I'm playing in a band I actually back off and play lighter under the vocals, or when someone else is doing a solo, and so on.

So it may just be a matter of cranking the volume on the OCD to what seems too loud, but actually isn't, or it may be matter of having more power available from the amp, especially with a lead switch.

Oh, I should also mention, if you're using your volume knob to turn up your guitar in a situation like this, that's a no-no. With higher gain, as you turn up your guitar it may just get more saturated and not any louder - a lower gain pedal still has room to get louder, but one set to a higher level of saturation may not - and that also depends on how the pedal was designed to react to more or less input from the guitar.

For example, there's a HUGE difference between 5 and 10 on my guitar when I'm playing totally clean. But if I turn on a drive pedal and set the volume to sound the same as my amp with the volume on 5, when I turn up to 10 the overdrive only gets slightly louder, but way more saturated - but nowhere near the volume the amp will be when I turn the pedal off!

So you could be experiencing some of that - each of those pedals (and the amp itself) may react quite differently to the various input levels.

The way around that is to set your "lead volume" on each pedal with your guitar on whatever is going to be lead volume (like 10) on all settings.

Then when you're playing rhythm, you'll just have to back off the volume knob on the guitar - but it will likely be very different for all pedals - you might only have to back off to 3 on the OCD, but backing off to 6 might be enough on the 808. That means you'll have to constantly listen for your rhythm volume and adjust, but at least you know all lead volumes will cut through.

Then, if you only use 1 pedal or combo for leads, you have to work the same thing out with them - stacking pedals also makes them react differently.

HTH
That's a great explanation. Some things I guess I knew intuitively, but hadn't thought of in such clear terms. I've had certain pedal/amp/guitar combos that sounded awesome in my living room, but sounded like crap once I was playing with other instruments, and certain combinations of the same that I never liked until I was playing in a band situation. You've clearly given this a lot of thought, thanks for sharing.
 

oldhousescott

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,742
I kind of find the OCD, well, not really mid-scooped, but relaxed through the mids relative to the highs and lows (and actually a tad fluffy on the low end depending on the version). It's great for rhythm and solo guitar sounds, but it can get lost in a denser mix. IMO, YMMV, etc.
 

Goku13

Member
Messages
619
Could also depend on how the rest of the band sounds too. If the other guitarist has a tone going on that covers up yours, that won't help either. Or, if they are all drowning you out, volume-wise, that would be a lot to compete with.

Balancing the volume between different overdrive pedals can be tricky by itself, let alone balancing your tone against a band at the same time haha.

I know little about the Roland Cube but maybe try a different amp and/or try messing with where the amp is positioned as well. Lots of variables here!
 

samhambone

Member
Messages
654
I've read that the reason the Tubescreamer designer designed it with its pronounced mid hump was due to exactly what you describe happened to your OCD, i.e., to stand out when playing/competing with other instruments and frequencies. Very often what sounds good alone at low volume can disappear when you add other instruments and volume.
 
Messages
1,743
thanks sirs. very enlightening answers. thanks esp stevel for very clear explanation. if iuse an eq pedal to add some more mids tothe ocd, would it help?
thanks again
 

DaveKS

Member
Messages
16,705
I'd look at settings on cube. Sounds like it was adding some breakup when you really wanted it totally clean. The distortion from ocd combined with breakup/edge of breakup from amp pushed you over the compression threshold into mush, when that happens all your punch and articulation will just vanish. You will just disappear in the mix. Simple fact that when you went to your lower gain pedals problem cleared up would be clear indicator of this.
 

thkh

Member
Messages
600
Stevel is right. Try backing off the gain a bit. There's also a helpful video done by a TGPer JustNick. Search for it on youtube. Use the keywords "how to cut through the mix" It's a bit long but really informative. I suggest you check it out
 
Messages
1,743
Tried using an eq pedal with the ocd to boost the lost frequencies( mids and highs) and tighten up the lows but retain the saturation and i like what im hearng. However this is at home. We'll see what happens in a live band mix
 
Messages
1,743
Tried using an eq pedal with the ocd to boost the lost frequencies( mids and highs) and tighten up the lows but retain the saturation and i like what im hearng. However this is at home. We'll see what happens in a live band mix
 

vegetablejoe

Member
Messages
811
Years ago, I would always get lost in the mix during band rehearsals when I used my OCD. Couldn't hear myself above the vocals and cymbals... Furthermore, two other guitarists were using strats on high gain. I had to be the odd man out and switch to humbucker guitars whenever that band got together.

I promptly let the OCD go and replaced it with a VS Open Road. But have not had the opp. to check out the effectivity of the latter pedal with a full band.
 
Messages
1,743
since it was my first time to use the cube, i resorted to what i usually do: clean amp, thne use pedals to get the drive or gain i want. i actually had my amp in the car, but my cousintold me not to bother since he had extra amps inside the band room. they play usually dance and party music as part of their dayjobs but they always call me up when they want to rock out.
 

T Dizz

Member
Messages
20,957
Higher saturation "seems" louder, but may not actually be!

Lighter overdrives let a lot of your guitar's own signal come through and are less compressed in general. This means the notes still kind of "pop out" just like when playing clean.

When you use a lot of gain, you're also typically getting more compression as well, so the volume peaks on each note are "clipped off" and don't stand out nearly as much.

Years ago, when I was gigging regularly, I had the chance to sit with my rig mic'd up into the PA, which had LED levels I could watch. I played clean, and then 3 levels of drive like you did. And I was able to set the volumes on each gain so they read the same level on the PA's LED levels.

When you do that, the highly saturated feels as if it's a lot louder than it needs to be, but the overall volume level doesn't really lie (it wasn't like one tone was way more bassy than the other or anything like that).

Another factor is the frequency spectrum of the overdrive - 808 style pedals are mid-boosted - the frequencies that are necessary for cutting through the mix. A lot of higher saturation tends to even out the mids lows and highs (again, this contributes to it seeming louder overall, because the sound is more full range). So the mids won't cut through as much at what seems like the same overall volume.

That you had to boost it with the 808 makes sense - because it's putting those extra mids back into the signal to cut through. It by itself with higher gain also makes sense, because it retains that mid presence.

But, this is probably the problem: You're probably playing at a volume where you're competing with the rest of the band to be heard. You're probably also at a volume where you're pushing things to the brink. That means that even though things might be loud, that extra little oomph from certain frequencies that have to fight a little harder to be heard is necessary - and those frequencies just may not be present in the OCD at those gain settings.

You may just need more power from the amp, but it also helps if the rest of the band knows how to back off when someone's taking a solo. Most bands know little about dynamics, and certain styles are kind of known for a lack of dynamics, but when I'm playing in a band I actually back off and play lighter under the vocals, or when someone else is doing a solo, and so on.

So it may just be a matter of cranking the volume on the OCD to what seems too loud, but actually isn't, or it may be matter of having more power available from the amp, especially with a lead switch.

Oh, I should also mention, if you're using your volume knob to turn up your guitar in a situation like this, that's a no-no. With higher gain, as you turn up your guitar it may just get more saturated and not any louder - a lower gain pedal still has room to get louder, but one set to a higher level of saturation may not - and that also depends on how the pedal was designed to react to more or less input from the guitar.

For example, there's a HUGE difference between 5 and 10 on my guitar when I'm playing totally clean. But if I turn on a drive pedal and set the volume to sound the same as my amp with the volume on 5, when I turn up to 10 the overdrive only gets slightly louder, but way more saturated - but nowhere near the volume the amp will be when I turn the pedal off!

So you could be experiencing some of that - each of those pedals (and the amp itself) may react quite differently to the various input levels.

The way around that is to set your "lead volume" on each pedal with your guitar on whatever is going to be lead volume (like 10) on all settings.

Then when you're playing rhythm, you'll just have to back off the volume knob on the guitar - but it will likely be very different for all pedals - you might only have to back off to 3 on the OCD, but backing off to 6 might be enough on the 808. That means you'll have to constantly listen for your rhythm volume and adjust, but at least you know all lead volumes will cut through.

Then, if you only use 1 pedal or combo for leads, you have to work the same thing out with them - stacking pedals also makes them react differently.

HTH
ditto :D

great post
 




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