Why do all modelers seems to do this?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by rich2k4, May 7, 2016.

  1. rich2k4

    rich2k4 Supporting Member

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    They use parameters or settings that don't exist on the actual amp. I was trying out a Helix today and pulled up a deluxe reverb amp model. Everyone knows that these amps get their grit from turning up the volume, yet the Helix parameters, and other modelers I have seen have a "drive" setting. So you end up with channel volume, plus a drive, plus an overall master volume knob on the helix unit itself.

    What is the purpose of the drive setting in amps that don't have one physically? It makes it confusing as to how to set up the amp because at that point it's not a real representation. Why not have it authentic and have the amp break up only if the amp volume is in the upper ranges?

    Ideally you would have the parameters change for each amp to represent what is on the actual amp if you were to be looking at it in person.
     
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  2. Powderfinger

    Powderfinger Gold Supporting Member

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    Per AX8 manual:
    "For amps which have no MASTER VOLUME, the INPUT DRIVE functions as the amp’s VOLUME control."
     
  3. Guitar1969

    Guitar1969 Member

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    Because we all love to tweak and that is what the manufacturers think we need in order to work with other outboard gear and to sell their units, and if they just put the basic settings, there would be a bunch of posts complaining how XYZ modeler does not allow enough customization.

    The exact thing is happening on the Zoom G5 and G5n modelers. G5 had alot of extra parameters, and now the new G5n has pretty much the same controls as the real amps (Fender Twin for example) but people are griping now because it is too basic and they want more tweakability. Never mind the newer G5n amp models sound better than the prior G5.
     
  4. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    Funny, many people here have complained that Helix doesn't have enough parameters for the amp models...

    But, statement regarding non-master volume amps on the AX8 applies to the Helix as well. The drive knob is the same as the volume knob. The master volume knob should be left at 100% if you want it to reflect the real power amp setting of the modeled amp. The mid knob should be left at 50%, and the presence at 0%.
     
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  5. rich2k4

    rich2k4 Supporting Member

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    So for the deluxe reverb model on the Helix, the channel volume knob would be max at 10, and the drive knob is what then determines volume/breakup?
     
  6. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    Channel volume is used to balance things between presets, no impact on how the amp reacts.
     
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  7. barhrecords

    barhrecords Member

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    I wish the manufacturers would provide an "authentic" control view in addition to the more "generic" view.

    On the plus side, you can change the gain structure (and other characteristics) in ways that would be difficult and time consuming on a real amp.
     
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  8. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    You'd leave the master volume at 10. The channel volume has no effect on the modeling. It's the level control for the amp block.
     
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  9. SteveO

    SteveO Member

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    I'm more concerned with getting really good sounds than I am with having 100% accuracy to the original amps, though I do understand where some people would prefer to have the appropriate control layouts. At the end of the day, it's all just about finding the noises that make us happy.
     
  10. chrisjw5

    chrisjw5 Member

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    Cool idea.
     
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  11. JohnB

    JohnB Member

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    amplitube licensed models do this for the most part (some exceptions like 5e3 :mad:) . But point is taken. If controls arent even close, then you just dont have the same user experience.
     
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  12. Gilks

    Gilks Member

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    Because if you wanted a Deluxe Reverb, you should've just bought a Deluxe Reverb. Modelers (at least the higher end ones) are aimed at possibilities, tone-shaping, versatility, at being able to do whatever you want. While they're sole purpose isn't to replicate something identically, it can certainly still be done with those units, at least that's my experience with the AxeFX II.
     
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  13. teleluvver

    teleluvver Supporting Member

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    I'm with the OP. I have a Helix, and the Twin Reverb amp has a gain knob. Just kinda threw me off.
     
  14. Rockfiddler

    Rockfiddler Member

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    So, having more controls is a bad thing?
     
  15. RLD

    RLD Member

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    Sometimes it's beneficial to read the manuals.
     
  16. teleluvver

    teleluvver Supporting Member

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    It's probably fine. I'm new to modelling, though, so I was just surprised to see the gain knob. In the analog world, the Fender Twin Reverb is the 50 year industry standard for big, loud cleans. For an amp that will deafen you without breaking up, I guess that that was what I was expecting in the preset.
     
  17. Will Chen

    Will Chen Member

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    While I 100% agree, it does seem odd that almost every manufacture chooses a generic parameter interface for the myriad amps modeled. I loved messing with both Amplifire and Revalver due to having real amp interfaces. Would love for more hardware manufacturers to do the same.
     
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  18. bgh

    bgh Supporting Member

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    Peavey did try to do this (somewhat) in their original Vypyr series of modelers. (Can't speak for the newer series). For example, on the model they made of Brian May's amp, the EQ had almost no effect. According to the user manual for the amp, they were attempting to mimic the controls on his amp.
     
  19. Lewguitar

    Lewguitar Member

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    I have a Mustang III.

    All of the factory presets are so gained up that the master has to be set at no more than 3.

    I guess they know that most guys are going for those metal overdrive tones.

    But to me, the amp actually sounds best with the master turned up to at least 7.

    Which requires turning the drive and preamp volumes way down compared to the factory presets.

    I use my own presets and none of the factory presets but after discovering this about the master volume I'm now rewriting all of my presets.

    The amp has a much cleaner tone now and is better for live blues, jazz and blackface Fender tones.
     
  20. chrisjw5

    chrisjw5 Member

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