Why don't reissues sound like originals?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by randuro, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. randuro

    randuro Member

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    This whole reissue thing kills me. Why can't Fender, Marshall and anyone else make the reissues sound like originals. They have all the materials, knowledge, schematics and technology to make amps sound even better. To be honest, I have never played any Fender older than 1970. I am begining to think this has to do with marketing and historic value. Do these companies wan't to keep the mystique and for that matter, the vintage market alive? It doen't make sense, at least to me. Any thoughts?
     
  2. electronpirate

    electronpirate Member

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    Amps CHANGE over time too. Everything gets older, more worn in. Also some of the materials used then are different (for instance, a formula/metal/process that would now be called toxic might have been used back then...).

    More than most, I think that some of it is pure perception that all the older amps *sound* better. Some do, but then MANY today sound great. I am convinced that overall, the tone is much better now than it has been ever.

    EP
     
  3. Skip62

    Skip62 Member

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    It's because of the laws governing the building and resale of electronic components to foreign countries. It's a safety thing. Also some of the components are no longer made that same way as they did 40 years ago.
     
  4. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    :confused: Huh? The Bassman RI sounds just like the vintage 59s, as does the Super reverb RI. The Marshall JTM 45s sound just like the originals, as does most of thier RIs. The Vox CC sounds KILLER, and while not a RI, it can match any of the older Vox sounds, and do many more all its own. Some RIs do not sound that close, because the manufacturer adds some newer features, which can change the tone a bit, but sometimes for the better..
     
  5. jezzzz2003

    jezzzz2003 Member

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    One thing that comes to mind is Carbon Comp resistors.
    These were used in all vintage amps simply becuse metal film was not available to them at that point in time.
    These resistors were not as accurate as todays types.
    Carbon comp resistors change with time and move out of their original specs, sometimes this helps create that "magic"
    but most of this is a flaw, not a desired effect.
    Other components such as tubes and capacitors move out of spec also.
    Is this a desired feature or just part of the myth that older is better?
    You will have to ask yourself that question but as for me, I'll take a reissue Marshall without old failing components before forking out for the "original"
    These sound just as good given time for the tranny and filter caps to wear in and they dont move so far out of spec over time but just sound killer.
     
  6. randuro

    randuro Member

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    I don't think I stated my thoughts properly. I guess my question should have been, "WHY DON'T MOST MUSICIANS THINK RI'S SOUND LIKE THE ORIGINALS". And if the reissues do sound the same, what's with the vintage and boutique market?
     
  7. homerayvaughan

    homerayvaughan Supporting Member

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    Huh?
    This is crap. I don't care how many amps you have played.

    If reissues sounded "just like" the originals, everyone would buy one, and the vintage market would dry up. Of course, the vintage market is NOT drying up, and old amps continue to soar in value. Oh no, couldn't possibly be that THEY SOUND BETTER now, could it????:Spank

    Some of them sound fine for what they are, and can be a good amp. But in no way does a reissue '59 bassman come even remotely close to the tone of an original. Still a nice amp, but NO.

    give me a break...

    This IS the reason boutique amp companies exist.
     
  8. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Sorry to upset you babe. Vintage is better is ********. I have tried and owned all these amps OVER AND OVER AND OVER. The vintage is better is for the UFO believers. Blind A/B tests do not lie. I STILL fell into it when I bought my 66 SR over a RI. I then regretted it every time I played a RI. And I searched for YEARS for the best sounding SR I could find. My Bassman held its own against EVERY 59 bassman I ever played.
     
  9. jezzzz2003

    jezzzz2003 Member

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    Does this mean that old guitars are better than the re-issues too?:rotflmao
     
  10. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Vintage ones are rare, and most people "hear" things the way they are told they should, or by what they have been told or read. Blind A/B testing blows the "vintage is better" theory out of the water. It did for me as well, and I am not ashamed to admitt it. What makes me laugh to is the "values change over time, adding to the "magical" sound. More BS. If the values sounded better after they wandered, guys would just measure that and use parts closer to that in the new amps. Parts that have wandered usually should be replaced, and most likely will sound better for it. ANY amp sounds better after a break in period. Maybe just the speakers and tubes breaking in. I know when I replace ALL the tubes in an older "new" amp, they (amps) feel stiffer and brighter to me.
     
  11. clunk

    clunk Member

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    Vintage sound better to me. RI's sound similar. But i have yet to find a RI that sounds exactly like an original.
    They may share the same schematics, or at least be very similar, but lookintg at the inards they are totally different.
    I've also AB'd RI's to originals i have. While similar sounding, generally RI's just dont sound as strong. I'm not going to get into tonal explanations on this. If you want a RI to sound like an original closest thing to do is change the components.
    Two different builds. Two different sounds.

    Clunk
     
  12. Amplite

    Amplite Member

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    Most Reissues sound a lot like the originals and are often more consistant.
    Many vintage era amps varied from amp to amp of the same model. A brand new old stock '65 Deluxe Reverb (As if one exists!) will sound different than a 42 year old well used relic. I rarely run across two amps that sound the same new or old. I'm always A-B'ing my Divided By 13 ERT33 combo with my buddies and they never sound exactly the same.
     
  13. Mayflower

    Mayflower Supporting Member

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    Time.
    Everything changes with time.
    However as mentioned above boutique amp makers are kinda changing that. Getting good vintage tone in a new amp.
    Vintage amps these days are not that great of an ivestment with some of the new offerings. (Maintenance being the big issue)
    I always played vintage years ago but recently things have changed.
     
  14. AJ Love

    AJ Love Senior Member

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    I don't believe that the Fender RI's sound as great as the Vintage Fenders. Cheaper caps, much much cheaper and inferior tubes, overall less attention to detail in craftsmanship, PTP vs cheaper PCB (I know PCB can be done great, by folks like Fuchs, but Fender ain't cuttin' it, imho)

    I've been fortunate enough to be working in studios that have both Vintage and RI Fenders, so I get to test them plenty, and the difference in pretty dramatic to me

    I'm thankful there are so many great Boutique amp builders these days
     
  15. sinasl1

    sinasl1 Member

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    I think the general consensus has been that the handwired Marsall stuff is pretty much right up there, no?

    I've also heard good things about the AC30 CC's, and I've played them a bit, and they sound great to me. I have played many a vintage ac-30 too... just not side by side. I did play a Top Hat King Royale next to a couple old AC-30's, and I bought the Top Hat.. which isn't to say that the ac-30's wouldn't have maybe sounded better with a cap job, better tubes, etc, who knows.... I've certainly played stellar old AC-30's in the studio and whatnot.

    Same deal with my Top Hat Emplexador, I bought it while on a search for a great 50 watt plexi or early 70's metal panel marshall.. I played 8 or 9 marshalls and they all sounded like they were tired and needed caps, tubes,, atc. The Top Hat sounded great and was a great deal... so guess what I took home? I mean, if it was 1976 and we were asking the same questions, when there was no vintage market to speak of, you wouldn't think twice, you'd just buy whatever sounded best and got the job done reliably.

    I guess I'm a little put off and dismayed by vintage prices these days... I mean, when you go in GC and everything in the vintage room has tags that only doctors and lawyers could contend with, wether or not the stuff even sounds good.... :messedup I think I'll buy reissues or boutique, thanks.... and I do!!:dude
     
  16. Laroosco!

    Laroosco! Member

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    The vintage market would be fine even if the RI's sounded twice as good as the originals. The vintage amps are worth what they are because they are vintage, rare and collectable.
     
  17. sinasl1

    sinasl1 Member

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    Truth.. just like old cars... new ones may perform better, but there'll always be the nostalgia factor. Which isn't to say that old amps and guitars don't sometimes sound better as well... there's magic ones out there for sure. My 63 335 walks all over most newer ones I've played!!!

    know where I think it makes the most difference? Old acoustics! Get a great old Gibson or Martin... and stand back, because if you get a good one, they'll destroy any new acoustic, boutique, whatever... I firmly believe that. Nothing can replace being played in for 40 years and wood drying out over time, and brazilian rosewood sides and back, and.... blah blah..
     
  18. 59model

    59model Member

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    I played Marshalls when nobody called them Plexi`s, and that`s when they sounded best. Not now and aged, IMHO. Dream on, unless you have a time machine, really. They might sound good still, like your 67 GTO might run with the proper maintaince, but like the GTO, you can`t get leaded gas no more, and if you rebuild your Marshall it ain`t the same. Look forward, not past is my suggestion. Many new amp companys can get you a reasonable old sound if that`s what your looking for, but to ask a 30 or 40 yr amp to go back to it`s heyday, well think about it. IMO, it won`t sound the same and never will. I won`t argue these facts, but why don`t the pro`s use their old gear that got them THEIR sound like Page and Clapton? I loved these amps too, but wouldn`t buy another one now.
     
  19. Gumby

    Gumby Member

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    RI’s sound different then their vintage brothers because reissues are not even close to perfect copies of the originals. If you ask the makers, they’ll tell you that R.I. take advantage of so called modern advances; in materials and method of manufacture. They’ve ironed out various clicks and ticks (and, in the end, a little mojo too.)

    While the wire length and resistor values may be the same, the wire and resistor makers might be different, and/or the method of manufacture of these individual components is different. Some components are from different sources all together, or the same source but different product because the machine that now pulls the wire and wraps it in insulator, does it a thousand times faster then previous method and equipment. But ultimately I results in a slightly different product.

    It is my opinion that RI’s that are made from N.O.S. sound very much like their predecessors and that includes rattles and clicks and so called undesirable defects that were a result of limitations of material and manufacture of the period each vintage amp came from. Funny isn’t it: iron out too many faults and imperfections and the result seems a little colder and clinical.
     
  20. Tankguy

    Tankguy Member

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    I think that a large part of the problem with the vintage amp lies with the fact that there weren't two of them that sounded the same. I love vintage stuff. If I had the money to blow, that's all that I would own. But there are drawbacks. Tolereances weren't as tight, there were WAY more variables and much more "human" error back in the day.

    I like a lot of current produciton amps. I think that by and large, Fender in particular are building amps to a better standard than they have in years. (Recent years folks, keep it reasonable...)

    Finally just one more last thought. I still don't get the whole PSB vs. hand wired. Okay, hand wired may be easier to service and repair, but please don't try to convince me that there is some sonic difference. Some evil substance in the PCB material that robs tone. A nefarious chemical that roams the traces of the board looking for signal to prey on. I would be impressed if any body could identify PCB vs. hand wired in a blind comparison. Honestly. I don't see that happening.
     

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