Why Don't They Include an FX Loop?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Wobegon, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. shadesofgray

    shadesofgray Senior Member

    Messages:
    656
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    I'm not a corksniffer, i'm a DIYer.. Ive installed metro zero-loss fx loops on most of my amps

    Evidence that fx loops suck tone? It's because 99% of the fx loops out there aren't built with parts that can handle the full voltage output of a tube gainstage

    Which leads to them lowering the voltage of the gainstage before the loop
    to voltages that are abnormal and starve the tone. If you want proof of this just buy a cheap multimeter and measure voltages in-between the last gainstage before the loop in your amp and then the voltages between the first and second gainstage and compare.

    The less voltage you feed a tube gainstage the more tone it will suck because tubes sound bad at low voltage.

    The Metro-kit costs $90 and has parts that handle full tube gainstage output voltage. It's hardly corksniffery, check out their forum and ask them.. There are alot of amp builders and DIYers there with an abundance of technical knowledge.

    I've compared amplifiers with the effectsloop (with nothing in it) and without it (by modifying amps to bypass the fx loop). It's not because I made some amateurish mistake of running a pedal in an effectsloop that sucked tone, jeez..
     
  2. david henman

    david henman Member

    Messages:
    3,123
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Location:
    toronto area
    ...this tone suckage thing...i dunno...even if you can hear it - and although i believe you, i certainly can't - what are the chances that anyone else can? and are you suggesting that the loop sucks your tone even if you don't use it?
     
  3. Rena Rune

    Rena Rune Member

    Messages:
    3,219
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    What exactly is "tone"? It's not some quantifiable value that's reduced by the presence of certain components. Just because something alters the sound of a circuit doesn't mean it's "tone sucking".
     
  4. david henman

    david henman Member

    Messages:
    3,123
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Location:
    toronto area

    ...if you can't hear the difference, what does it matter what a multimeter reads?
     
  5. somedude

    somedude Member

    Messages:
    7,265
    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Location:
    South of Heaven
    Some amps are really obvious.

    Some not so much.

    Depends on how well designed the amp/loop is.
     
  6. Schafrocks

    Schafrocks Supporting Member

    Messages:
    2,427
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Location:
    Southern Illinois
    Seriously, this was a major concern with me. The zero loss loop is the best I've ever heard. The guys at the metro forum are major tech guys. I did a lot of research on this before I altered my amp. It was designed for pedals mostly, but I think they have a mod for it to use rack gear as well. The w/d/w is a great setup, but I'm in a bar band. With PA and lights, I already have too much stuff to pack around and set up. I use the loop for volume boost and delay/modulation effects. I got a great sound out of my 800 before and still do. The tone change was very minimal, if any. I've definately not had anyone come up and say, man, your amp just doesn't sound the same anymore. It still rocks and it serves my needs a lot better. I wouldn't knock it without trying it. Only cost $90 too.

    Schaf
     
  7. shadesofgray

    shadesofgray Senior Member

    Messages:
    656
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Really? You're reducing this to an argument about definitions? :bkw Anyhow, in answer to your query:

    In electronical devices it's the ability for an electrical signal to pass through a circuit with the desired properties intact and the non-desired properties removed from point A to point B

    For guitar amplifiers this translates to preserving the frequencies of the guitar signal before it is colored with whichever flavor you prefer, say tubes in this instance.

    I.e. you want the guitar amp to color you tone, change it, but you don't want your signal to change prior to reaching the stage of the amplifier whose purpose it is to do so.

    and the dynamics, the varying impedance and voltage generated by the electromagnet from pick attack strength

    You might want increased compression when you're playing high gain, but
    i doubt you would want everything to sound like if you had a compressor on max all the time.


    These are the fundamental technical aspects of tone preservation. And before you reply with another futile argument like how humans hear sound differently from other species and therefore whales might prefer bad fx loops: Arguing about fundamental definitions 4 pages into a discussion about guitar amplifiers is reserved for the rhetorically impaired. :jo

    There, I said it. Sue me. I'm out. :bkw
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
  8. Ickythumper99

    Ickythumper99 Member

    Messages:
    422
    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Location:
    Coon Rapids, Minnesota
    What's the matter with just putting pedals in the input? i have an effects loop, tied it, didn't hear a difference and now i just line in. sounds fine to me.
     
  9. Rena Rune

    Rena Rune Member

    Messages:
    3,219
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Do you run clean/low gain?

    If so that's the issue; not everyone does. Some people like to use amp disortion with delay or other effects. It amazes me how clueless some people can be about this.

    Define desired?
     
  10. JoeB63

    JoeB63 Supporting Member

    Messages:
    12,877
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I think what Shadesofgray is trying to say is, that most amp manufacturers implement effects loops in a sub-optimal way (bringing the voltage down and then back up), and he doesn't understand why, given that there are better ways to do it -- and he believe that applies in all cases.

    The confusion here is that there's really no such thing as "tone suck." If an amp has an effects loop, yet the sound of it is pleasing to the user's ear, then the tone is good, and the amp circuit is good. It's possible, in that scenario, that if the loop circuitry was removed from the amp, the user would like the tone less than he did with the loop in place. So in that case, the loop would "add tone" (which of course, is as meaningless a term as "suck tone").
     
  11. shadesofgray

    shadesofgray Senior Member

    Messages:
    656
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Yes, I can see you missed this section of my previous post:

     
  12. just_one_more

    just_one_more Member

    Messages:
    1,020
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Location:
    Grass Valley ,CA
    Are you talking about lowering the B+ supply voltage to the tubes them selves, or the attenuating the signal level?
     
  13. somedude

    somedude Member

    Messages:
    7,265
    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Location:
    South of Heaven
    Try putting your delay before your overdrive pedal and setting the repeats up for clean playing, then step on your overdrive and tell me how it works out for you.

    Same problem with channel switching amps with no effects loop... particularly if you're going from clean to high gain.
     
  14. A440

    A440 Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    4,500
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2003
    Location:
    Central New Jersey, USA
    it works better with the delay AFTER the OD. It only starts to sound 'ugly" when the amp begins to introduce it's own OD tone.
     
  15. somedude

    somedude Member

    Messages:
    7,265
    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Location:
    South of Heaven
    Exactly.
     
  16. Wobegon

    Wobegon Member

    Messages:
    433
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    dingdingding

    I want to use multi-tap delays and non-spring (hall+modulation) reverbs AFTER the initial gain stage of the amp. I go for a medium gain sound prior to effects (not really a high-gain player), but it still sounds like garbage unless the amp has an effects loop. A direct out doesn't do the same thing - and requires a second amp. I just want one amp, with a nice preamp gain sound (I really like the Soldano AstroVerb for example), but without an effects loop, I can't get the sounds I want. They lose out on sale of a $1200 head because they can't even add an option for an effects loop so I can use the effects I want.

    I'm close to buying an isolation cab and a mic pre and going

    pedals->amp->cab->mic->effects->direct/monitors

    I could almost do a half-assed version with pedals and a line mixer if RV-5s could do 100% wet
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice