Why modelling and profiling in the same unit?

Matttt

Member
Messages
191
I don’t understand why’d you’d want both modelling and profiling in the same unit.. ? Like the QC does.

Surely if the modelling is up to par, then the profiling is redundant isn’t it? Why would you want to profile a JCM800 when they’re a model of it which is more adjustable in terms of amp controls etc?

I can see the utility if you want to profile an amp that isn’t modelled.

The QC looks great and people are talking about “What if...” the next Helix has profiling. But I just, don’t see the point.

Am I missing something?
 

LaXu

Member
Messages
10,958
Profiling/capturing lets you do some of these things:

  • Capture your favorite real amps or pedals. Otherwise you have to work another model to match your favorite gear or just deal with the differences in tone.
  • Try rare gear that will never get modeled. For example Quad Cortex has some captures of Wizard amps which are not modeled in any unit because they are expensive.
Having both full models where the controls behave like the real thing is really great but it's a lot of work to develop and you are entirely at the mercy of the developer to add that stuff. Yeah, in most cases you would not want to use the capture of an existing model unless it happens to sound just that bit different from the modeled one.

I don't see much point for Fractal to have profiling for example when they have hundreds of amp models with massively tweakable options. Only thing it would do is shut up all the people asking for more.

Helix has less options to choose from so having profiling capability would be a nice addition, just like it's on the QC in its current form. Overall having profiling is a "value added" feature.
 

Frank67

Member
Messages
1,919
I kind of get it - you want iconic standard amps like a deluxe reverb, a Vox AC30 or a Marshall Plexi in great quality and don‘t want to browse through hundreds of questionable user uploaded profiles. The Kemper rig exchange is suffering a bit from that and then one has to do research on commercial profile vendors and it is all a bit inconvenient and time consuming - Plus the additional cost.

I really like my Kemper, in particular for recording, but I feel that particular aspect they could have done better: give the users a few really great profiles of iconic models rather than giving them hundreds and hundreds so that users can sort it out themselves. Having those models in great quality out of the box is nice touch and for many people it will be all they want.

but then, you may have that really cool boutique amp or a combination of an amp with a magic drive pedal and you want to have that too in your rig without having to turn to an independent piece of Hardware.

hence, I feel both have their place in the same unit - and I‘m not even interested in the Quad Cortex.
 

Edoardo_P

Member
Messages
1,582
As a huge preamp/compressor nerd, the answer is: pedals. I don't want more than 5 amps but i do want my blue note, my foxcatcher, that VCA comp, that secret preamp, that chorus pedal no one is modelling, etc.
Given the state of the QC maybe Kemper could ...
 

DigitalTube

Member
Messages
1,322
For me even with great modelng available these days...because I own amps I really like, I get my sounds very fast with 'Profiling" and plan to do the same with "Capturing" so the modeling part of the QC will be ignored.. :) BUT for anyone who doesn't have amps, then it's nice to have.
 

Solude

Member
Messages
464
The point of profiling is to take a snapshot of a rig. Useful when, like the QC, the model list is pretty small and the pedal/amp/cab you want/have just isn't in the model list. Ex. the Helix has no Boss Blues Driver, if it profiled I could have one to use in Helix.
 

Rufless

Member
Messages
291
Because they can.

I think this thread is done and can be closed ;):D

In all seriousness:

Fractal Axe FX came out with a very good modeling and "lifted" modeling up to professional stages. (I know there was modeling before, but let's be honest the first Axe FX made it "en vogue" to be a touring guitarist with just the Axe)

After that Kemper released its Profiler and made hauling around monster (studio/recording) rigs in a little toaster possible.

You would be either dumb or have a very good reason to release a 2021 product and miss out on both features.
 

DeadLazy

Member
Messages
2,142
I think it’s redundant. I prefer profiles. I find models tweak to a fault.

I’ve lost interest in the QC for various reasons but that it tried to throw in the kitchen sink and do everything, is one of them.

If Kemper were to add models I don’t think I’d use them ever. When you can create your own model, based off profiles, call me. Even then, it’ll just be fluff.

And I’m keeping my pedals. I have to haul around a freaking computer and I miss my amps. I’m not giving up my pedals, too. I do think drive pedals sound a lot better than the pedal models.

Although Kemper Stage and its Fuzz is damn close.

**I also use a Helix Lt
 
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phil_m

Trying is the first step towards failure.
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
14,369
Profiling is a way to appease people who want a very specific amp or feel they need to have access to every flavor of a certain style of amp. Someone put up a post on the Facebook Helix group saying Line 6 needs to model a lot more Marshall amps, and that made me laugh, given the number of times people have complained here about there already being too many Marshall and Marshall-derivative amps on the Helix...
 

RevDrucifer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
3,233
In my case, I’m not overly interested in profiling, but it’d be cool to have. Some of my buddy’s have some REALLY f*cking cool/vintage/rare amps that would be fun to collect.

I head over to their house to jam, all I do is bring a QC, a few cables, couple guitars and as long as I can plug into the power section of one of his amps, that’s all I need. Then we spend an hour taking snapshots of his amps so when I go back to my studio and I’m thinkin, “Man, so and so’s Cameron would be really cool to put on this part....”, I can just call up my buddy’s Cameron.

That‘s the only aspect that’s really appealing to me. That said, it’s going to be a while before I even consider a QC. Especially now that the prices are going up, there’s no way I’m going to spend nearly what I did on my AxeFX III for a unit still in beta. Right now this thing is being floated on promises.
 

DeadLazy

Member
Messages
2,142
Maybe Kemper has been collecting up all the profiles and crunching the data and will one day create the Kemper Amp. One model to rule them all.


I do find when my buddy starts tweaking the Helix (he is on an LT, too) I sometimes have to just get comfortable. It drives me crazy.

Profiles are perfect for me and the Kempers five slots in a performance is also perfect. Toss in morphing and ducking and I could, and do, live off 5 slots.

It’s not so much that any other product is lacking, Kemper just nailed it for me.
 

BWebb

Member
Messages
397
I have a Kemper and an Axe FX III and will probably get a QC once they’re more widely available. Both methods have their place but I think profiling is great for someone with a large amp collection.

I prefer my own profiles over others because I have more control over my amp settings, my guitar, mic placement, etc. The ability to set your mic up the way you like, hit a button, and have a digital copy of your tone that you can instantly compare 1:1 is amazing. No need to worry about about the “why your amp doesn’t sound like my modeled amp”. To have a direct comparison without concern for power tube bias and potentiometer tolerance of the specific amp modeled is a wonderful thing.
 

aleclee

TGP Tech Wrangler
Staff member
Messages
13,667
  • With QC, captures aren't just for amps. You can capture pedals and speakers as well. While the KPA could do this as well, the single profile per rig limitation made it impractical.
  • Not everything is gonna get modeled. While it might be a little redundant to capture a Fender Twin, there are plenty of rare / obscure amps that are never gonna get modeled. Capturing provides the ability to add amps that the modeler manufacturer isn't willing to invest the labor to create a model.
  • Captures are less CPU-intensive than models so even if the captured amp is redundant, the capture can be used to save CPU in complex presets.
  • Because they can :)
 

Fireproof

Nobody's fault but mine
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
4,535
I don’t understand why’d you’d want both modelling and profiling in the same unit.. ? Like the QC does.

Surely if the modelling is up to par, then the profiling is redundant isn’t it? Why would you want to profile a JCM800 when they’re a model of it which is more adjustable in terms of amp controls etc?

I can see the utility if you want to profile an amp that isn’t modelled.

The QC looks great and people are talking about “What if...” the next Helix has profiling. But I just, don’t see the point.

Am I missing something?
It’s really simple:

1. More is more. It increases real and perceived value.

2. With any modeler, there is always a finite list of amps and effects. What if you want that Swart AST-Pro that you love? Or whatever other boutique amp? Good luck finding a modeler with it in there. Now you can have both - access to a bunch of models and ability to put ANY other amp in that same device.

And think about it this way - with a “modeler only” - the list of models will always be limited. Add profiling/capturing to the device, and now your list becomes infinite.

Seems pretty cool to me...
 

Matttt

Member
Messages
191
Yeah, all good answers.

I get that it’s useful if there are amps/pedals you want that are not in the unit. But I suppose over time this becomes more and more redundant... the AxeFx now has such a range of amps
and is so tweakable that I’d personally not find myself wanting much else.

Really don’t understand when people are profiling products that are already modelled though.

I guess part of my feelings on it are; which is the pinnacle then, the model or the profile/capture? Will there by an impetus for companies like QC to develop new models (laborious) when pros will be selling captures of everything soon anyway. I always preferred models for the tweak ability so I’d hope that doesn’t happen.
 

LaXu

Member
Messages
10,958
Really don’t understand when people are profiling products that are already modelled though.

I guess part of my feelings on it are; which is the pinnacle then, the model or the profile/capture? Will there by an impetus for companies like QC to develop new models (laborious) when pros will be selling captures of everything soon anyway. I always preferred models for the tweak ability so I’d hope that doesn’t happen.

That's a good question. The answer is "the one that sounds better to you". For example for the QC there is a Soldano SLO model but I have also tried some captures users have uploaded from the SLO-30 and SLO-100. I actually liked the captures better than the model and had a hard time dialing it to sound the same. Now this could be something like NDSP have modeled an older SLO model so it doesn't have the Depth knob etc and small things like that make a difference in how it sound. Or it could be that NDSP amp models are not as good as the captures, I really can't say.

I have felt that the amp models were mostly on par with the capture sounds but the captures will always be something dialed to the preferred sound of its maker so like the good presets on NeuralDSP plugins, that can be the difference that makes it sound better rather than any modeling behavior.

I too hope that NeuralDSP keeps implementing more and more full amp models because they have more versatile adjustment but it's hard to say no to the captures because they are kind of "put it in a preset, sounds good right away" type deals more often than not.

I feel that many people wanting profiling in their preferred modeler are looking for it purely for the "yay, I can try all this rare, expensive gear easily" aspect than for practical reasons like wanting to profile their favorite pedal that nobody models.
 

BWebb

Member
Messages
397
Really don’t understand when people are profiling products that are already modelled though.

Pretty sure I explained this above but I guess it’s worth repeating - my amp, my settings, my guitar, my mic placement, my etc...

I have a Cameron CCV that I profiled and while the model in the Axe FX sounds good, I prefer the profiles in that particular case by a wide margin.
 




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