Why no amp in the room mode?

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,294
Many of us who’ve been on this crazy modeling goose chase for the last 20 years or so have probably noticed a recurring theme with newcomers as they start their own modeling journey. That recurring theme is the introduction and explanation of the differences in feel, sound, and overall perception of experiencing one’s rig in a studio booth with a mic on it versus standing 6-8 feet in front of it while rocking out. :p

I’m pretty sure we’ve all had or been part of that conversation here. It’s a common point made in nearly any thread where someone is fighting with their modeler.

Is anyone else surprised we haven’t seen an “Amp in the Room” mode on a modeler yet? Is the technology really not at a point where we could have a holographic (or something like it) presentation of listening to an amp in the room at 6-8 feet back with no mic model?

I get there could be complications with measurement tooling, perhaps creating the space correctly, and modeling the decay of the amp in the room...but even a rudimentary implementation of this would be of interest to me. It would be really cool to capture a little more of that vibe through headphones for late night practice.

Im not sure this would be useful outside headphones, but it could be cool for those of us who are headphone/EIM players. Just a thought.
 

Harald

Member
Messages
148
There are inherent problems with this. In theory, if you generate an two IRs uaing the amp you want to emulate in the room you will be playing in using mikes placed where your ears will be and then set up a stereo playback system that you calibrate with the same two mikes in the same position and then stand very still while playing...

Headphones will make the room portable but you will still have to stand still. :anon

Its quite a bit simplified, above, but the point is that since room interaction is a big part of "amp in the room" it becomes difficult. And that is still just the tip of the iceberg.
 

Lele

Member
Messages
1,604
Many of us who’ve been on this crazy modeling goose chase for the last 20 years or so have probably noticed a recurring theme with newcomers as they start their own modeling journey. That recurring theme is the introduction and explanation of the differences in feel, sound, and overall perception of experiencing one’s rig in a studio booth with a mic on it versus standing 6-8 feet in front of it while rocking out. :p

I’m pretty sure we’ve all had or been part of that conversation here. It’s a common point made in nearly any thread where someone is fighting with their modeler.

Is anyone else surprised we haven’t seen an “Amp in the Room” mode on a modeler yet? Is the technology really not at a point where we could have a holographic (or something like it) presentation of listening to an amp in the room at 6-8 feet back with no mic model?

I get there could be complications with measurement tooling, perhaps creating the space correctly, and modeling the decay of the amp in the room...but even a rudimentary implementation of this would be of interest to me. It would be really cool to capture a little more of that vibe through headphones for late night practice.

Im not sure this would be useful outside headphones, but it could be cool for those of us who are headphone/EIM players. Just a thought.
The question makes sense, but I'd say that it was answered many times imho, and it all depends on the speaker simulation through impulse responses.

The main matter is using properly made Impulse Responses taken far field and with no early reflections as @theevilone said before me.
And it seems it is an expensive (both for experience and tools required) matter so that the availability of such IRs is almost close to zero.
Some time ago there was a big and very interesting thread about this:
The first 50-100 messages say it all; unfortunately the graphs included in that thread aren't available any longer, but the discussion can be enough if you read it carefully and maybe look for other info in the web if you need them, in this forum too.

Then there is the matter of what you use to reproduce your sound:
- in case of headphones you will simply need a good reverb effect to build the virtual room and ambient
- in case of FRFR speakers: you will already get the in-the-room reverb and reflections thanks to your own ambient, so you will not need that effect in the IR or as a separate effect
 

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,294
The question makes sense, but I'd say that it was answered many times imho, and it all depends on the speaker simulation through impulse responses.

The main matter is using properly made Impulse Responses taken far field and with no early reflections as @theevilone said before me.
And it seems it is an expensive (both for experience and tools required) matter so that the availability of such IRs is almost close to zero.
Some time ago there was a big and very interesting thread about this:
The first 50-100 messages say it all; unfortunately the graphs included in that thread aren't available any longer, but the discussion can be enough if you read it carefully and maybe look for other info in the web if you need them, in this forum too.

Then there is the matter of what you use to reproduce your sound:
- in case of headphones you will simply need a good reverb effect to build the virtual room and ambient
- in case of FRFR speakers: you will already get the in-the-room reverb and reflections thanks to your own ambient, so you will not need that effect in the IR or as a separate effect
I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing here, and I’m not sure I’d want to couple it to the reflection free IR conversation. Reflection free IRS are more about capturing a cab and mic sound without the room reflections coloring the IR. This has more do do with removing the effect of the mic completely.
 

Mooselake

Member
Messages
1,228
It's pretty complicated to do that if you aren't vibrating a guitar speaker somewhere in the room. You've basically got either the problem of making small speakers sound like larger higher power guitar speakers and are pretty restrained by the limits of the small speakers when it comes to modifying the input signal to make them sound big and powerful. Or, creating a loudspeaker in the room experience with headphones. That is being worked on in the realm of recording/mixing, and maybe in the world of VR too. I think by using headphones with built in motion sensors to decouple the apparent sound source from the headphone orientation and devices you wear to vibrate your body the way air moving due to a loud sound would. I don't think the technology has made it there yet, and it's difficult to stick all that in a box.
 

Lele

Member
Messages
1,604
I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing here, and I’m not sure I’d want to couple it to the reflection free IR conversation. Reflection free IRS are more about capturing a cab and mic sound without the room reflections coloring the IR. This has more do do with removing the effect of the mic completely.
The main point of the IRs taken by Jay Mitchell was exactly what you are asking: no mic influence (that is a neutral mic at a proper position), no reverb influence (that is no early reflections included in the IR), and then using an FRFR to get what a guitar cab emits when you listen to it at the typical distance.
 
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eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,294
The main point of the IRs taken by Jay Mitchell was exactly what you are asking: no mic influence (that is a neutral mic in a proper position), no reverb influence (that is no early reflections included in the IR), and then using an FRFR to get what a guitar cab emits when you listen to it at the typical distance.
I understand that. I participated in the thread and have the IRs, and was underwhelmed. I don’t personally think those IRs really solved the problem or relate to this topic.

For starters, we want the room interaction here as it’s an important part of the experience. We would also want a binaural capture and presentation.
 
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White Limo

Member
Messages
1,110
What I'm really surprised by is there is no one making a lightweight combo with a tube power amp built in. Something like the Tech 21 PE but with great sounding tube power.

In the modeler age, that would sell like hotcakes, and give everyone their amp in the room.
 

TonyCass

Member
Messages
802
I read this somewhere else on this forum and it was a solid point .... EVERY great guitar tone that we hear and love, obsess over, and try to emulate is likely the sound of a guitar amp captured by a microphone. Even most live events (when we could go to them) had guitar cabs mic'd up and fed through a PA. These days we are also probably listening to guitar players playing through modeling devices on recorded tracks and when playing live.

The crowd of players that have actually grown up (in the sense of their guitar journey) learning by the sound of a killer amp tone in the room is probably small. It seems that small group has done a wonderful job spreading the amp in the room gospel to the rest of us .....
 

mehegama

Member
Messages
213
The issue is that FRFR/PA speakers and headphones cannot reproduce the exact sound and response due to the physical properties of the 2. Personally I never understood why some people like or even need the amp in the room sound to play well, since this output is never listened by anyone (or almost anyone) since in all records and the vast majority of lives, we listen to an mic'd amp.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
10,903
I read this somewhere else on this forum and it was a solid point .... EVERY great guitar tone that we hear and love, obsess over, and try to emulate is likely the sound of a guitar amp captured by a microphone. Even most live events (when we could go to them) had guitar cabs mic'd up and fed through a PA. These days we are also probably listening to guitar players playing through modeling devices on recorded tracks and when playing live.

The crowd of players that have actually grown up (in the sense of their guitar journey) learning by the sound of a killer amp tone in the room is probably small. It seems that small group has done a wonderful job spreading the amp in the room gospel to the rest of us .....
I dunno. I fell in love with playing guitar the first time I plugged into an amp and turned it up louder than my parents would have allowed if they were home but not so loud that the neighbors would rat me out to my parents later. The tone wasn't great - crappy 80s solid state.
 

sleewell

Senior Member
Messages
10,600
play a modeler into power amp with a cab and you will achieve amp in the room tones with the feel we all are looking for. guitar speakers moving air at volume is a real thing. modeler into small studio monitors will not get you all the way there but its good enough for solo practice and to write riffs. apples to apples.

i know it sounds dumb, like why would you do that instead of just amp and cab with pedals and a mic but its nice to have so many amps and effects available in one box and then to also be able to easily send a direct signal with cab sims where you can easily change speakers, mics, mic distance, etc.. if you wanna go that route.

i love being able to get a loop going and then try different amps or cabs or mics. really helps you figure things out in a way that would take hours and days with a traditional setup.
 

JCW308

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
8,311
Most modelers have mic distance and early reflections, as well as mic placement. There's your amp in the room (for now at least).
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
10,903
Many of us who’ve been on this crazy modeling goose chase for the last 20 years or so have probably noticed a recurring theme with newcomers as they start their own modeling journey. That recurring theme is the introduction and explanation of the differences in feel, sound, and overall perception of experiencing one’s rig in a studio booth with a mic on it versus standing 6-8 feet in front of it while rocking out. :p

I’m pretty sure we’ve all had or been part of that conversation here. It’s a common point made in nearly any thread where someone is fighting with their modeler.

Is anyone else surprised we haven’t seen an “Amp in the Room” mode on a modeler yet? Is the technology really not at a point where we could have a holographic (or something like it) presentation of listening to an amp in the room at 6-8 feet back with no mic model?

I get there could be complications with measurement tooling, perhaps creating the space correctly, and modeling the decay of the amp in the room...but even a rudimentary implementation of this would be of interest to me. It would be really cool to capture a little more of that vibe through headphones for late night practice.

Im not sure this would be useful outside headphones, but it could be cool for those of us who are headphone/EIM players. Just a thought.
This issue has been addressed in the first few pages of every manual of every modeler I've ever owned, where it shows various ways of using the modeler. All if those manuals have shown various ways of monitoring the modeler without speaker sim through a guitar cab.

The "problem" is the opposite of what @TonyCass describes. It's not a few people trying to convince the masses they need amp in the room. The problem is the number of people that keep ignoring all the ways you can use a modeler and instead focus entirely on headphones/studio monitors/FRFR when those monitoring approaches are going to struggle to give them what they're looking for except under very specific, not easy to replicate conditions.
 

CanserDYI

Member
Messages
1,245
I guess I'm alone in feeling an FRFR at a reasonable volume completely satisfies me. I'm so used to it at this point, dare I say real amps and cabs often sound very harsh to my ear? Not saying I don't like real amps in the room, but I'm starting to actually prefer my FRFR sound.
 

Foxmeister

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
259
It would be really cool to capture a little more of that vibe through headphones for late night practice.
In my opinion, this is what the Boss Waza-Air headphones do very well - by far the most satisfying experience I've had playing through headphones.

That being said, with the Helix 3.0 firmware, I've found that the stereo width block has improved the overall headphone experience too.
 

phil_m

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
12,387
The question is a bit like asking why you can’t recreate the experience of watching a movie on an IMAX screen at home just using your 65” 4K TV. Your 65” TV is very nice, but there’s always physical limits as the experience it can recreate.
 




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