Discussion in 'Luthier's Guitar & Bass Technical Discussion' started by nemp, Dec 16, 2005.
Which do you prefer??
wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap, wrap,
Don't know why,i just like em!
I'm planning on building an lp and I think that the tune o matic is a tone sucker. I going with the pigtail aluminum wraperound bridge with adjustable saddles.
I don't know, some pretty great recordings have been made with those tone-sucking tune-o-matics!
To each his own I guess.
But sonically speaking, I'm pretty sure a single wraparound transfers vibrations better than two bars of metal that are heaver for the strings vibrations to move.
I don't mean to start a war but that's just how I see it.
"I don't mean to start a war" but why would a metal bar suspended on two posts over the body transfer vibration better than a bridge suspended by two posts and PRESSED down by the strings connected to the tailpiece? Huh?
Anybody ever test this premise?
(Somebody has to ask the obvious questions)
Why not get the best of both worlds. A tune-o-matic bridge still allows you to wrap the strings around the tailpiece. Simply treat the tailpiece as a wraparound bridge. I used to do this when I played Les Pauls. You can hear a difference.
A wraperound tailpiece has better vibration transfer due to the strings pulling force. When you have a wraparound tailpiece there are rotational force at work trying to rotate the back of the tailpiece (and therfore the studs) to be on the same axis as the strings.
So you've got the studs putting pressure on the stud holes in the body wood adding to the bridges solidness which in turn provides more sustain and more tone.
The reason that a single wraperound has better vibrational transfer than a t.o.m. is because even though you have downward pressure with a t.o.m. bridge the vibrations are not concentrated as much as with a wraperound.
I've never tested this but it is a colabration of ideas from people I have talked to combined with my own.
Any more questions?
Come on. I like to discuss these kind of things.
First, I am member of the T-O-M camp. I don´t know exactly why but I´ll try my best to explain....
a) a T-O-M feels better and gives a better rest for my right hand´s wrist. ( Totally subjective, I know)
b) with a T-O-M you get a different string tension compared to a wraparound bridge and I prefer the T-O-M feel over any other bridge
c)with a T-O-M you can "tune" the overall sound (twanginess and mid response) of the bridge assembly to your own liking. Try it, it works!
d) Who says that the maximum transfer of vibration has to be better? Is the whole concept of a Wraparound better? Is every guitar which was tuned to maximum sustain the superior guitar? I honestly don´t think so.
Happy with old school tune-o-matics
Love natural sustain.
Love BIG tone.
Love TOM feel for muting/damping.
Love Fender string spacing.
Love a little whammy action.
I don't get all the love from any one guitar. What's next?
How would you "tune" the overall sound of the guitar. I've never heard that your able to do this to a les paul.
well, with a T-O-M/stoptail you obviously can *not* tune the overall sound of the guitar, but by lowering or lifting the stoptail you get a different break angle at the tune-o-matic. As a result to will have a different feel *and* a slightly different sound depending on how you set the system up. Steeper angle equals more string tension and more mid response, lower angle equals less string tension, a somewhat softer feel and less twanginess.
The same principle works on Fender-style bridges. Some players shim the neck and consequently lift up the saddles to get a steeper break angle.
With a wraparound you are pretty much stuck with what the manufacturer had in mind originally.
I agree that a steeper/shallower break angle over the saddles would cause a change in string tension but I don't know if there is much of an audioable difference in tone I've never had a les paul and am building one and trying to make the best/most toneful bridge choice. A wraperound tailpiece just makes more sence to me ... all the vibrations are concentrated at just 2 points - the nut and the bridge. Also there is more contact of the string to the back of the bridge to more easiely allow for vibration transfer.
The prs web site says that the prs wraperound is designed to take full advantage of the resonant properties of their guitars. So I guess I've got Paul Reed Smith sharing my view.
Spending a little too much time on the "Tone Pros" website I see? If you're going to use physics/math to establish which option is best, how do you quantify tone? I don't think anyone can.
"Acoustic coupling" is a barge full of crap. More vibration transfer? Really? Even if it's true is that better in every situation? Nobody knows.
I honestly don't know of what context of acoustic coupling you're speaking of... However, the kind of acoustic coupling I'm thinking of isn't a "barge full of crap." For a long time I used 2 bass cabs, sometimes I'd have them stacked, sometimes I'd have them side by side, and I do recall the first time I thought I'd pull some tricky thing by having a cab on each side of the drums, washing directly towards me. Although I had all 6 speakers pointing directly at me (although from different distances) I was wondering where all my big 'ol' nut shaking thunder went- acoustic coupling. You can drag the cabs 3' apart and angle them both towards you and you can tell the difference.
I don't think you can generalize in a glib manner about the difference. There are fantastic guitars of each type. I have two stoptails, a junior and a special, they both work great, sound great. I also have two TOM one with a stop, and one with bigsby, which also sound fantastic. I will say that I had to fiddle about a lot more with the Tuneamatic guitars to get them up to a comfort level for me, where I could do a whole set on the guitar. Too few people convert a plank from wrap to TOM in a scientific manner to really compare how a plank sounds different, with just a bridge change. I do have a fondness over time for the recorded body of Les Paul Juniors, but there are the pickup differences and of course the players to consider in what made those sounds so cool. Also, by the way, there are no stoptail 335's,(too bad all those guitars suck! ) but that's a digression.
The idea that an electric guitar doesn't have enough sustain, to me just means that that player is using the wrong amp for the venue, or the song. I also think that a good Fender Stratocaster Tremolo, or Telecaster ashtray, is way more interesting, adds massive character, and to me "sounds better" than any Les Paul. But of course that is just opinion, like everything else in this thread. One thing about stoptails, some string sets, particularly heavy guages, will not intonate with a wrap bridge. A Tuneomatic, you at least have a chance. I like both, but prefer Fender scale guitars for the ropy feel, and tremolo equipped guitars in general.YMMV.
I prefer the wrap tail. I have two LPs, a R8 and an R4 Tonequest. Both weigh in at 8.65 lbs. The R8 sounds very good, but the R4TQ notes just leap off the fretboard. The R4 actually feels smaller, more compact than the R8. More Sustain? I really don't think the R4 has more sustain, but what it does have is "growl" (an under tone) that just blooms when over driven.
The PRS wrap around bridge is the best of all worlds.... I wish Gibson would license it from them.......