Yet Another DIY 5E3 Speaker Question...yes, really...Update

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
But to keep it on point, I'll make it brief :) I've finally experienced the "farting out" sound on my 5E3 after putting a 5Y3Gt rectifier tube in. The extra sag and earlier breakup is great but it definitely does it on bassier chords when turned up. It's my TubeDepot build with the stock Jensen Mod speaker that comes with it. It sounds great and I've read as many 5E3 speaker posts as humanly possible I think, but basically would a tighter speaker help with this or is it simply easier/better to go back to the 5AR4/GZ34 JJ rectifier? Less sag/breakup but no farting. Local music shop is blowing out their WGS line so I can get a Blackhawk or ET65 easily. And yes, I "could" order a 12a125a etc, etc, etc, etc but it's christmas, I'm lazy, and these are close so they would be my choice otherwise for now I'm happy to just leave it alone. But who doesn't love another speaker thread?
Cheers, and Merry Christmas!
Michael.
 
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swiveltung

Member
Messages
14,496
Which Mod? They are not the cleanest of speakers... If it's truly the 5Y3 that's causing it then changing speakers might not get you there. You could try something in between 5V4 maybe? But the right speaker could get you just enough too. A lot of variables!

5AR4 / GZ-34
5V4-GA
GZ37
5U4-GB
5Y3-G/GA
5R4GYB
5R4G/GY/GYA
 
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mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
Ya I suppose, was hoping someone had been through the same circumstances. The Blackhawk is on my Christmas list I gave the wife so we'll see if it makes it to the tree this weekend. If so I'll report back with my own results. I went with the 5Y3 simply because it was the vintage spec recommended. And it's a good recommendation. I'll check the specs on the other rectifiers you mention. They're not expensive to source for me and it could be fun to have a drawer full of options like that!
 

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
You missed the "I'm lazy" part...thanks for the tips, though. I'm going to put the 5AR4 back in tonight and play around and do a comparison...
 

MKB

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
8,373
What kind of guitar are you using, and what are its pickups? That circuit is bad to fart out at higher gains with humbuckers, might have to tweak interstage coupling caps like has already been mentioned. Another help might be to try some lower gain tubes (i.e. 12AT7) in the various stages. IME tweeds sound best with a 12AY7 in V1.

As far as speakers go, IMHO it's very hard to beat a good G12H-30 in a tweed Deluxe. It just sings.
 

pdf64

Member
Messages
7,365
If it sounds fine with a GZ34 but farts with a vintage 5Y3, then I don't see that the speaker is likely to be be a root cause, as the amp will almost certainly put out a fair bit less power with a vintage 5Y3 than a GZ34.
 

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
I played around with it a lot last night switching the rectifier tubes in and out. It turns out my strat for some reason sounds really resonant and messy if I strum hard on lower frequency chords. The frets are pretty worn down, maybe that's it so I switched to my Les Paul and then Tele. :/ Different tones but not really "farty", not like what the strat was doing so I probably should have experimented more. The rectifier tubes did sound a bit different from one another but I'd imagine that's from the differing voltages through the circuit. I honestly don't have a preference but I left the GZ34 in for now. Plus now that I've had a chance to break the Mod 12-50 in a bit more I think I still may try another speaker. I don't dislike the Mod (actually really like it) but I am curious to see what the blackhawk or et65 sound like in it...
 
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Steppin' Wolfe

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,059
IMe, a Fender single coil will not push an amp the way a humbucker or a P-90 will. That 'farting' that you are referring to ...ime....is not 'farting' but the unwillingness of the amp to go ahead and yield smooth overdrive because of that 'wimpy' single coil. this is why all single coil players use a boost/overdrive pedal, imho, in order to get smooth overdrive out of low gain amps.
That said, reduction in the values of those coupling caps will decrease the tendency of this amp to yield excessive lows.....it will tighten the amp up. Also, increasing the first stage of filtering to 30mfd will also tighten things up. I personally have never heard of or considered running a GZ34 in that circuit. IF one does that, then you have the option of increasing the first filter stage to as much as 60 mfds....really tighten things up. But....then, when does one no longer have a 5E3. I like 5E3's the way they are.
Pick attack is a big aspect of playing one of these amps, ime and imho. I know of people who can't get a clean sound out of an unamplified acoustic guitar due to excessively heavy pick attack. (;^)....an amp like the 5E3 can be instructive as to guitar output...pick attack/and/or guitar volume control adjustmetn.
 

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
Thanks for that, I'm still learning the responses of my different guitars to the amp. I agree completely with "when does one no longer have a 5E3". I also love the amp the way it is. As far as the GZ34, that's what it came with, and why I also bought an extra 5Y3. That said, the sound is fairly close with either in place.
 

pdf64

Member
Messages
7,365
OK, that counts as being a proper 5Y3 then.
I'd expect about 50V difference in HT voltage between that and the GZ34, which may result in a noticeable tone / feel difference.
 

DGDGBD

Member
Messages
6,986
But to keep it on point, I'll make it brief :) I've finally experienced the "farting out" sound on my 5E3 after putting a 5Y3Gt rectifier tube in. The extra sag and earlier breakup is great but it definitely does it on bassier chords when turned up. It's my TubeDepot build with the stock Jensen Mod speaker that comes with it. It sounds fine and I've read as many 5E3 speaker posts as humanly possible I think but basically would a tighter speaker help with this or is it simply easier/better to go back to the 5AR4/GZ34 JJ rectifier? Less sag/breakup but no farting. Local music shop is blowing out their WGS line so I can get a Blackhawk or ET65 easily. And yes, I "could" order a 12a125a etc, etc, etc, etc but it's christmas, I'm lazy, and these are close so they would be my choice otherwise for now I'm happy to just leave it alone. But who doesn't love another speaker thread?
Cheers, and Merry Christmas!
Michael.
I liked the WGS classic lead 80 when I had a 5E3 combo.
 

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
Well I went to see about getting a WGS ET65 at the local store that was blowing them out but they were out, so I picked up a G12C instead. There's a guy on youtube who built a 5E3 in a cakepan (his name's Kley De Jong, great guy). He's using a G12c for this build and it sounded pretty good so I figured I'd try it. Almost went for the G12c/s but wasn't sold on the smooth cone and sound clips I'd heard so went with the C instead. Initial impressions:
1. It's heavier and about 3/4-1" deeper than the Mod 12-50. Stands to reason as it's a 75W as opposed to the Mod's 50. Bigger magnet.
2. Frame is made of a thicker steel too. Pretty nice, beefy looking build.
3. But how does it sound? Well I only had about 15 mins this morning to try it out, and only with my strat but first thoughts are it's LOUD!!!! Holy cow, way louder than the mod.
4. Low end is tighter. Mod is way looser? Don't know if that's the right word, not in a bad way, just different. My strat is very resonant and this is accentuated on the low end. You could really feel it with the Mod but the G12C keeps it together way better. I wouldn't describe it as loose or flabby whatsoever. Really pleased about this.
5. Midrange-high end is really too early to tell for me. I really need to break this in some more as the Mod was played quite a bit and reasonably broken in. For now the tone is similar but louder so not sure if it's more piercing/brighter on the high end or just louder. Need to play it through my Tele and Les Paul as well. Overall tone is fine, not as woody as the Mod.

Also, a little off-topic but I noticed a glassy rattling sound when I played really loud, is that a tube? Power or Pre-amp? All the screws and bolts on the amp are tight, went over that while putting the new speaker in. Noticed this a bit with the Mod speaker as well but the G12C goes so much louder, it's obviously vibrating more...
Anyways, hope this adds to your morning read :)
Cheers!...
 
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Tony-Cliffton

Member
Messages
1,037
If it sounds like a rattlesnake kind of sound but more subtle and only on the end of notes you play and then mute suddenly, then yes, it's the inside of the tubes rattling.
Could be pre, or power. Only way to tell is change them. Small cabs on them champs.
 

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
:) Ya and it coincides a bit with my 5Y3 rectifier tube install so I'm going to start there...I have other pre-amp tubes but no spare 6V6's so I'll narrow down what I can.
 

mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
So after living with the G12C for a week and a bit I can now start to "hear the light" at the end of the tunnel... It's taken several hours of break in time to really sweeten this speaker up. I've read a lot of posts about speakers needing break in to loosen up and sound good but didn't really think it would make THIS much of a difference. The Mod 12-50 got smoother for sure but pretty much sounded the same. The G12C brand new - I thought I made a mistake - the sound was "stiff"?? "harsh?" - I dunno what to call it but was seriously considering putting the Mod back in. After a week of playing loud loops through it a couple hours a day I would say it's on it's way to smooth and chimey. MUCH nicer. I can't really fault the Mod though, sounded decent enough but the G12C is definitely tighter on the low end. Would not describe it as loose at all. I still think there's a ways to go break-in wise with this speaker so I'm holding off on final thoughts for a while until I've played it enough.
 
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mamm7215

Member
Messages
316
Welp, back to the egg...after a good bit of playing loops and guitar through the G12C it did break in some but I just never got to love the tone. To my ears, this isn't the speaker for my amp. Took it back and exchanged it for the WGS G12C/S as it's said to have less shrill highs but still tight low end. I can report that this is the case. Absolutely NO shrill highs but still some chime available. Considering it's the same magnet, wattage and spl as the G12C it's quieter and breaks up much sooner. Also has a smooth cone. The G12C wouldn't break up until almost full volume and VERY loud. Piercing highs too. Great lows though. These don't even sound like similar speakers though WGS says they're the same American voiced drivers with the C/S being smoother. I mean it is, but to me that's where the similarity ends. The C/S sounds great right out of the box, I've been playing it most of the evening and it will interesting to see where it settles out after some break in. Anyways, thought I'd update, back to playing...
 




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