your non-emotional reason to hate DIGITAL modelers?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by idnotbe, Mar 24, 2017.


  1. Promit

    Promit Member

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    Okay, fine. I looked at the paper. This article describes a quantum algorithm that solves for an approximate value of an operator predicated on the solution to a linear system of equations, and does the work roughly in logN time instead of N time (setting aside the condition number side of things, which is messy). While that's perfectly nifty, it's a long jump from there to "instantaneously" as one person said. More to the point, it's not applicable even conceptually to the problem at hand of modeling the output of a tube amplifier and you'd find it to be depressingly far from real time at the things it can do. When it comes to quantum computing, we're talking about accelerating calculations from weeks to hours. That's potentially awesome for classes of problems that have no relevance whatsoever to home computing - at least for a couple decades. I have faith that we can solve amp modeling before that, with conventional systems.

    Read the paper first next time.

    Honestly it seems to me that the problem with amp modeling is little to do with processing power and everything to do with a somewhat incomplete understanding of all the mechanisms and subtleties at play in these amplifiers. It's not "we know exactly what's happening and don't have the power to model it" but rather "we're refining and enhancing the models to represent all of the details of the output".
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  2. Mickey_C

    Mickey_C The Original Racketeer Gold Supporting Member

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    My bad, I totally missed that. lol.

    I agree it doesn't have to be one or the other. In truth I think our current tastes are shaped more by what we've heard, or heard growing up, than any other singular factor.

    Some hotshot new guitarist could come out any day that has a killer sound/technique using solid state amps and suddenly they'd be all the rage with a new generation.

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  3. Mickey_C

    Mickey_C The Original Racketeer Gold Supporting Member

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    Quantum entangled pairs appear to be instantaneous in that the probability field collapses backwards in time. That's a mainstay of physics, and perhaps outside the realm of this discussion. But the point is computing logic based on entangled pairs will indeed appear to have zero latency.
     
  4. Husky

    Husky Gold Supporting Member

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    Exactly and I think I said that in this or another post. It's going to take a guitarist with a "signature toneprint" who uses a modeler maybe with a tone that wasn't meant to emulate something else. But we are all stuck on our heroes. The exact same issue with guitars. People scream at me for not being more original but I have a crew and a family to feed and more original = less sales. The consumers drive the manufacturers. This industry is already shrinking due to the lack of interest in actually really learning an instrument by our youth. They have way too many distractions.

     
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  5. IAm MI

    IAm MI Supporting Member

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    I don't hate modelers. I've used them effectively, although the only ones I have left are a pair of THR10s (one standard, one C).

    I don't prefer modelers because of interface. Most go for the all-in-one, kitchen sink thing, making the interface too busy for my liking. The only ones with the interfaces I like lack certain features that I find to be the most compelling personal draws to modelers (nearly encyclopedic sonic range and sound storage and recall).

    I also don't want to go down the power amp/FRFR rabbit hole, and I prefer a head/cabinet or combo format anyway. I do believe they'll come up with the modeler I want sooner or later, and some have gotten fairly close, but it hasn't really happened yet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  6. Elric

    Elric Member

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    OP: asks for non-emotional reasons people hate modelers.
    TGP: responds with thirty pages of pure emotional hate.
    Tag returns;
    My faith in TGP is restored.

    You guys had me going there a while with all those favorable Katana/Quilter/Blues Cube/Metal/Friedman/Ceriatone etc threads but the universe appears to have spontaneously rebalanced itself.
     
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  7. somedude

    somedude Member

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    I've often wondered why more hasn't happened on this front. There seemed to be a bit of a push on the extreme/progressive/djent metal front, but that seems to have stalled out. Last I heard Meshuggah switched to tube amps.

    That said, past a certain point you're pretty much playing a synth with a guitar as an expression pedal, which isn't really new and never really caught on.

    In fairness, a lot of millennials are listening to their parents/grandparents music, and the guys in my band (23, 25 and 27) seem to be gassing for the same gear their heroes used, and their heroes weren't using modellers.
     
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  8. PB+J

    PB+J Silver Supporting Member

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    What I dislike is the way they reproduce a kind of standardized landscape. It's not that they sound bad, it's that they sound familiar and trite. Oh here's a knob that gives me "tweed, vox, blackface, marshall, Mesa." Ugh. its just an exercise in imitation. They encourage dicking around rather than playing. "maybe thios cliche blues lick will sound really great if I try it through a different model."

    Imitation is an important part of any musical journey, but the goal is to have something to say and say it in your own voice, not sit there saying the same thing in other people's voices.

    they sound fine to me. I don't buy the "digital can't do analog" argument. I listen to analog gear on digital system all the time--it sounds great. But modeling amps sound canned in the way that satellite radio sounds canned.

    I like the ZT amps lunchbox line because they aren't obviously imitating any specific amp. I wish someone would make a solid state amp with a flexible eq and saturation, that did not try to imitate or model a vintage blah blah blah or an etc etc., but just gave you a good basic tone with the flexibility you need in performance.
     
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  9. IAm MI

    IAm MI Supporting Member

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    Law of Large Numbers. With so many millions out there, sure there are some who listen to that music. But by all available measurables, from record sales to ticket sales to other metrics of cultural footprint, it is on a serious decline. You could probably accurately say that "a lot" of Millennials listen to jazz, but there's not about to be a wave of big jazz clubs opening nationwide, packing to the rafters with paying customers nightly.
     
  10. somedude

    somedude Member

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    Considering that strip bars are slowly going out of business while the porn industry fragments, I don't think this is a problem that's limited to rock music.
     
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  11. bullet6759

    bullet6759 Member

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    This is not correct. Most shows I attend are packed with young and old. Sales are only low because most music now you can get free if you are kid. look at how many Music festivals there are not to mention jam bands.
     
  12. Promit

    Promit Member

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    Afraid not. First, although the state itself will collapse instantaneously, it cannot be measured instantaneously* which is the salient point for a computing system. Second, a quantum algorithm shares with normal algorithms that it requires a series of dependent steps, some of which use a quantum operator to collapse states. A quantum operator cannot solve an entire problem in one step. Thus the actual time taken is dictated by the latency to measure a step times the number of discrete steps taken. You can't break that barrier. (Traditionally, the description was that quantum allows you to do an NP-hard problem in P-time steps. I gather there's some progress on tackling non-NP problems, like the aforementioned linear system.)

    As an addendum, consider that quantum entanglement requires classical measurement which has the effect of gating transmission of information to light speed. Given that there are non-zero distances involved in all levels of a computing system, this is a very real limitation on how we can even use the system.

    * As a physicist, you can make measurements and build experiments showing that a quantum entanglement collapses to a single state instantaneously. It's fascinating from that viewpoint. Proving that it happened instantaneously is unfortunately not equivalent to determining the resulting state instantaneously, and so we end up with our measurement latency and our light-speed limit which are the factors that dictate the ability to perform actual computations at a particular speed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  13. IAm MI

    IAm MI Supporting Member

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    Except that the sales are down relative to non-guitar driven music. Young people may be listening to the older stuff (I still don't see any data to suggest that is true), but the quote from @rsm was:

    "It's no wonder many millennials see guitars/guitar music as boring/old fashioned, it's their parents and grandparents sounds...and many guitarists are keeping it that way be recreating sounds of the past ad nauseum."

    The lack of vitality and renewal in the instrument is what I took @rsm to be talking about. Sure, they may listen to the Beatles, and they may listen to Mozart. But they're not taking up the harpsichord or a Rickenbacker. And the ones that do (in the case of the Rick) are not getting the ears of their fellow Millennials.

    No anecdote to the contrary can counter the reality that right now, the top musical acts have a much smaller proportion of guitar rock bands in their number. Yes, some AARP-eligible bands are selling out big tours with crazy prices. But that could just be nostalgia. The lack of a next wave of rock and roll stars suggests that is true. For their part, festivals are actually pointed to in the industry as evidence that individual tours (which are inherently more lucrative) are limited to the top-rung pop acts.

    I work and spend time with a lot of younger people, and some of them do in fact listen to the old music. But I acknowledge the role of self-selection in my sample size. The broader pop culture landscape shows that I am looking at a minority.
     
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  14. bullet6759

    bullet6759 Member

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    And where are said millennials posting or saying guitar music is boring/old fashioned? And a 808 drum machine beat is the tits?
     
  15. IAm MI

    IAm MI Supporting Member

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    Well, I've heard things like that in person many times (I work at a university). I don't hang out in places online where those statements are likely to happen, so I obviously can't point to them. I'm not gonna go anecdote for anecdote, because I know my limited direct experience. If you looked at my friend groups and cultural influences only, you'd think guitar was the dominant instrument for those under 35. But the relative levels of commercial exposure and success speak volumes. Again, guitar ain't dead. But absolutely isn't king, particularly with the young.
     
  16. jpage

    jpage Silver Supporting Member

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    Great post, but you better be ready to type it another ninety zillion times haha. For one, there aren't many people here who have any sort of audience at all. Secondly, for those to whom the gear is the end game this stuff has an almost romantic attachment. And people get emotional about romantic attachments. If someone doesn't want something to work really really badly, they can convince themselves it doesn't. Even if they admittedly don't have a clue.
     
  17. BoogieManSC

    BoogieManSC Supporting Member

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    In the post you quoted, who the F said they were connecting a tube amp to a modeler, then through an FRFR and judging which sounded more like a tube amp? Not me...DUH...

    Thanks Freud...no idea what the F you're even talking about with this psycho-babble, honestly.

    Awesome...for me, I've witnessed in both rehearsals and live gigs, the computer based Helix reboot probably 5-6 times, taking at least a minute for it to come back up....rendered useless...followed by grumblings of an update being required...whatever.

    The amount of failures in the 6-8 tube amps I've used in the last 5 years alone...zero...every one of them. This of course leaving out the general "problem" created by the modeler's tone comparatively sucking ass vs. tube amps/analog pedals...and not mentioning the synergy and sustain created between pickups and and an actual amp with the tubes cooking that a digital unit simply cannot duplicate. I know...because I play the same exact songs through both units...weekly.

    I do...and if I can borrow your quote again...DUH...
     
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  18. jpage

    jpage Silver Supporting Member

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    Dude, why are you so angry??? Does the fact that people use and enjoy something different than you offend you?

     
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  19. BoogieManSC

    BoogieManSC Supporting Member

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    I was quoting a reply back to one of my previous threads if you scroll up. I'm actually pretty happy go lucky
     
  20. jpage

    jpage Silver Supporting Member

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    No you came in to a discussion with a preconceived notion that you aren't going to let go of no matter what anyone says. Good for you man no one is forcing you to do anything. But if bands on the level of Metallica and U2 are using modelers live I think they pass the smell test. Even if BoogieManSC says they all "blow" lol.
     
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